Ease of keyboard navigation
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Ease of keyboard navigation
One of x²'s most subtle, but very handy feature is the ability to quickly navigate through directories using the keyboard by hitting ENTER each folder we go down. Normally in Windows Explorer, we would have to hit ENTER, then move our hand across the keyboard until our finger reaches the DOWN ARROW so we can highlight the first file on the list (inside the just-accessed folder, one level down) and only then hit ENTER to run the file. It is worse than a nagware when browsing through Windows Explorer. That's why xplorer² is so nice!
But this could taken more advantage of. When we go down one folder, x2 shows a slightly visible greyed out cursor on the first file. Hitting enter will run it, or, if it's a folder, it will go down into it. If we hit DOWN (arrow) before, then it will jump straight to the second file and highlights it in blue. It means the first file was already selected from the very beginning, but we can't run other file operations with it. If we hit F4 at that point (first file selected, not blue, but light grey, just-accessed folder), the expected operation would be 'copy to the opposing panel', but it won't. In other words, the file is selected only for running (hitting enter) and renaming means (it works pressing F2 to rename the first file, strangely).
So why can't x² have all file operations to be available to perform on the first file of a just-accessed folder?
Thanks Nikos, Kilmatead and other geniuses!
But this could taken more advantage of. When we go down one folder, x2 shows a slightly visible greyed out cursor on the first file. Hitting enter will run it, or, if it's a folder, it will go down into it. If we hit DOWN (arrow) before, then it will jump straight to the second file and highlights it in blue. It means the first file was already selected from the very beginning, but we can't run other file operations with it. If we hit F4 at that point (first file selected, not blue, but light grey, just-accessed folder), the expected operation would be 'copy to the opposing panel', but it won't. In other words, the file is selected only for running (hitting enter) and renaming means (it works pressing F2 to rename the first file, strangely).
So why can't x² have all file operations to be available to perform on the first file of a just-accessed folder?
Thanks Nikos, Kilmatead and other geniuses!
Re: Ease of keyboard navigation
I think that the light grey rectangle indicates the focused item, which need not be the selected item, and I think there are lots of discussions about focus versus selection in these forums.
However, directly connected to the question posed above is the following, inconsistent, behavior. If I open a folder that has not been opened in the current X2 session, then, as remarked in the post above, the first item is focused but not selected. If I then backspace to the containing folder, and then hit enter again to reopen the newly opened folder, then that first item is both selected and focused, even though I have never selected it. Once the folder has been visited, and then backspaced out of -- or left by clicking the breadcrumbs at the top of the pane -- then on return the last focused item is presented as both selected and focused. This is true even if no item was selected. If multiple items were selected, then on return only the last focused item is selected (it could have been one of the selected items or a different item entirely). So on reopening the folder, only the focused item is selected, and it is always selected.
Given the behavior in the preceding paragrraph, it may make sense to make the first opening of a folder in the X2 session behave similarly -- show the focused item as selected. Alternatively the selection and focus could be preserved. Or maybe it makes sense to have nothing selected (as now) to signal a first entry. I've no strong opinions, but as it stands the first entry into a folder does seem different.
In any case, in general, I've found the current behavior for revisiting the folder to be very handy. Usually I backspace out of a folder tree. Later when I want to drill down to where I was, the current behavior makes this work very well as it has selected the folder at which I was at each level and I just hit enter again and again.
However, directly connected to the question posed above is the following, inconsistent, behavior. If I open a folder that has not been opened in the current X2 session, then, as remarked in the post above, the first item is focused but not selected. If I then backspace to the containing folder, and then hit enter again to reopen the newly opened folder, then that first item is both selected and focused, even though I have never selected it. Once the folder has been visited, and then backspaced out of -- or left by clicking the breadcrumbs at the top of the pane -- then on return the last focused item is presented as both selected and focused. This is true even if no item was selected. If multiple items were selected, then on return only the last focused item is selected (it could have been one of the selected items or a different item entirely). So on reopening the folder, only the focused item is selected, and it is always selected.
Given the behavior in the preceding paragrraph, it may make sense to make the first opening of a folder in the X2 session behave similarly -- show the focused item as selected. Alternatively the selection and focus could be preserved. Or maybe it makes sense to have nothing selected (as now) to signal a first entry. I've no strong opinions, but as it stands the first entry into a folder does seem different.
In any case, in general, I've found the current behavior for revisiting the folder to be very handy. Usually I backspace out of a folder tree. Later when I want to drill down to where I was, the current behavior makes this work very well as it has selected the folder at which I was at each level and I just hit enter again and again.
- FrizzleFry
- Platinum Member
- Posts: 1241
- Joined: 2005 Oct 16, 19:09
Re: Ease of keyboard navigation
I don't know what the reasoning behind focusing but not selecting the first file when first entering a folder is but I do find it annoying as well. Mainly because the $P token is not set until something is selected in that pane.
You can use the space bar to select/unselect the focused item.
You can use the space bar to select/unselect the focused item.
Re: Ease of keyboard navigation
Not exactly true - $P is only left unassigned if used within an empty folder, where there is nothing to focus or select. It works fine even with no selections, as long as there is at least 1 object available for focus.FrizzleFry wrote:Mainly because the $P token is not set until something is selected in that pane.
The attentive scripter need only write a little spaghetti which compares $I (inactive pane path) to $L (left/top pane path) and $R (right/bottom pane path) and then take whichever one does not match $I as the definitive $P. This works whether it has contents or not.
And before you remonstrate with me for not only pointing out the obvious, but also to notice that this requires passing "$I" "$L" "$R" as parameters to every user-command you make simply to derive $P, I'll say that I fully agree with you and that I too consider this a bug. Naturally Nikos should be flogged for such a thing, but as it's Friday, we won't beat him up after school today and will instead simply toss his backpack in a tree for a laugh.
As an observation regarding this inconsistent auto-selection behaviour, enabling Mark -> Sticky Selection will instead always default the last selected item to "focus" state upon revisiting the folder, rather than "selected" state, so it at least eliminates the overt inconsistency. Of course, considering that Sticky Selection is rather like the lecherous uncle you'd rather not suffer through Christmas dinner with, it's a matter of the devil you know.otlaolap wrote:However, directly connected to the question posed above is the following, inconsistent, behavior.
Ultimately, as FrizzleFry pointed out, the simplest wisdom of the day is "use the space bar to select/unselect the focused item." And never ever assume the driver in front of you is actually going to do what his indicators doth indicate.
- FrizzleFry
- Platinum Member
- Posts: 1241
- Joined: 2005 Oct 16, 19:09
Re: Ease of keyboard navigation
You are right... $P seems to be set when something is focused but not selected...
Lately I have been getting errors which indicate $P is not set on a user command I run a lot... the user command runs AllDup (a dup file finding program) with $P as parameter and I don't run it in empty folders... I'll have to play close attention next time I get that error... although every time I get the error all I do is click on a file and the user command runs fine...
Lately I have been getting errors which indicate $P is not set on a user command I run a lot... the user command runs AllDup (a dup file finding program) with $P as parameter and I don't run it in empty folders... I'll have to play close attention next time I get that error... although every time I get the error all I do is click on a file and the user command runs fine...
Re: Ease of keyboard navigation
Thanks for considering.
But hitting space? Oh come on... it would be just a keystroke away from the destination, when it could be none at all! See, if he go down on a folder but hitting ENTER, with the objective to copy the very first folder in the child directory (the one we're currently at this point), then hitting F4, then it won't work; so we would have to hit ENTER, SPACE, F4, ENTER to accomplish. Three different fingers..
But hitting space? Oh come on... it would be just a keystroke away from the destination, when it could be none at all! See, if he go down on a folder but hitting ENTER, with the objective to copy the very first folder in the child directory (the one we're currently at this point), then hitting F4, then it won't work; so we would have to hit ENTER, SPACE, F4, ENTER to accomplish. Three different fingers..
Re: Ease of keyboard navigation
I don't remember why this is handled this way, perhaps one group of users wanted selection and the other group wanted nothing whatsoever, so we ended up somewhere in the middle!
Re: Ease of keyboard navigation
I see.
But Nikos, you're a fan of productivity, right? So not only regarding this matter, why not thinking about, in future versions of x², having things accomplished with less keystrokes or mouse-menu-selections? For instance, I'm not saying you should adopt some kind of ribbon interface (which is nice by the way), but selecting a menu, like Customize, then pointing to the drop-down menu 'user commands', then the submenu 'sample' is a three-way path to follow with the mouse, and we can't begin to know ALL keyboard shortcuts.
Well, talking ribbon... have you ever considered?
But Nikos, you're a fan of productivity, right? So not only regarding this matter, why not thinking about, in future versions of x², having things accomplished with less keystrokes or mouse-menu-selections? For instance, I'm not saying you should adopt some kind of ribbon interface (which is nice by the way), but selecting a menu, like Customize, then pointing to the drop-down menu 'user commands', then the submenu 'sample' is a three-way path to follow with the mouse, and we can't begin to know ALL keyboard shortcuts.
Well, talking ribbon... have you ever considered?
Re: Ease of keyboard navigation
I don't like ribbons especially because they cannot be customized. But there could be one for v3
Re: Ease of keyboard navigation
I don't like ribbons either. But I like Ross' observation and suggestion.
I almost always navigate with keyboard. So I've encountered this "half-selected" phenomenon often and wondered about it. Though I also think the first entry should be selected normally when entering a folder there's the same problem when I'm moving files (non sticky mode) from one pane to another or to a target by move-history. After the move the next file again is not selected but "half-selected" so I have to select with space (or mostly I use arrow up/down) to be able to use file operations on it.
It would be more convenient and practical to select the next file automatically, so it can be moved or worked on immediately. I know it's just one keystroke but it really amounts if you're working with and sorting a lot of files.
I almost always navigate with keyboard. So I've encountered this "half-selected" phenomenon often and wondered about it. Though I also think the first entry should be selected normally when entering a folder there's the same problem when I'm moving files (non sticky mode) from one pane to another or to a target by move-history. After the move the next file again is not selected but "half-selected" so I have to select with space (or mostly I use arrow up/down) to be able to use file operations on it.
It would be more convenient and practical to select the next file automatically, so it can be moved or worked on immediately. I know it's just one keystroke but it really amounts if you're working with and sorting a lot of files.
Re: Ease of keyboard navigation
Thanks BRX for your support for the cause
Yeah, what about having the first file on a just-accessed folder selected, not only focused?
Nikos, how come they're not customizable?? They are, man! Specially on Microsoft Office 2010, you can even export a ".customizedUI" file to carry your customizations around, the ribbon specifically! Very, very handy. And the whole ribbon concept is a success: although got resistance back in '07 when launched, ribbons organize functions intuitively, visually and were specially designed to reduce the number of steps until a particular function is used. As you can see, no more than two clicks are necessary to use any of Microsoft Word 2010's features on the ribbon, as long as the window is not partially sized on the screen, and as long the user has created no custom sections (see? Customizable!). Also, the keyboard navigation along the ribbon, starting by typing Alt (typing, not holding down) then a string of characters, such as Alt-H-F-F to change the font type (not sure about the seqeuence in English)... The strings would never replace the customizable combo keyboard shortcuts, of course, because they're instant. Nonetheless, the ribbon strings are a valuable addition.
After people got used to it, it was so fluid Microsoft decided to put the ribbon on their Windows 8's "File Explorer" (no longer Windows Explorer). The change in the name also indicated, for me, that Microsoft is now trying to show File Explorer as an application and not as a simple "accessory".
What about if Microsoft gets serious about file management so people think x2 is no longer necessary??? Ok, not trying to raise a speculation but.... it's a theory!
Yeah, what about having the first file on a just-accessed folder selected, not only focused?
I don't like ribbons especially because they cannot be customized. But there could be one for v3
Nikos, how come they're not customizable?? They are, man! Specially on Microsoft Office 2010, you can even export a ".customizedUI" file to carry your customizations around, the ribbon specifically! Very, very handy. And the whole ribbon concept is a success: although got resistance back in '07 when launched, ribbons organize functions intuitively, visually and were specially designed to reduce the number of steps until a particular function is used. As you can see, no more than two clicks are necessary to use any of Microsoft Word 2010's features on the ribbon, as long as the window is not partially sized on the screen, and as long the user has created no custom sections (see? Customizable!). Also, the keyboard navigation along the ribbon, starting by typing Alt (typing, not holding down) then a string of characters, such as Alt-H-F-F to change the font type (not sure about the seqeuence in English)... The strings would never replace the customizable combo keyboard shortcuts, of course, because they're instant. Nonetheless, the ribbon strings are a valuable addition.
After people got used to it, it was so fluid Microsoft decided to put the ribbon on their Windows 8's "File Explorer" (no longer Windows Explorer). The change in the name also indicated, for me, that Microsoft is now trying to show File Explorer as an application and not as a simple "accessory".
What about if Microsoft gets serious about file management so people think x2 is no longer necessary??? Ok, not trying to raise a speculation but.... it's a theory!
Re: Ease of keyboard navigation
So Nikos... is a ribbon considerable?
Re: Ease of keyboard navigation
so do you think people would be able to customize the ribbon editing XML files? You clearly don't know the skill of the average user
Re: Ease of keyboard navigation
Ribbons - at least as MS implements them are NOT intuitive - at least not to me. I Have great difficulty finding some things that used to be easy to find with the old Menu structure in Office programs. True I do not use Office on a daily basis. If I did I would eventually get used to the ribbon layout. I guess that to me, it is "logical" for things to be in different categories than where MS puts them. I am not saying that MS is wrong I am saying that I cannot always find items easily where MS thinks they belong because I do not think the way they think. And that is a good thing - in my book. I also have a difficult time doing searches on MS websites because the search terms I use do not seem to be what MS uses as titles or key words in their articles on a given subject.
Re: Ease of keyboard navigation
so do you think people would be able to customize the ribbon editing XML files? You clearly don't know the skill of the average user
No, I'm not saying that! Neither can an average MS Office user. But an average user can go to the "customize ribbon" menu and get things added and removed, pick from a long list from available commands and then click on the arrow to "add to custom group". Then he gives a name to this brand new custom section of his own and he's done. He doesn't even know what a "code" is.
the thing is, when this is done, the code is automatically generated on the background, and then saved without the user knowing it. Like the code built when you're recording a Word macro and watching the VBA editor on the fly: the lines of code are appearing, one by one. And recording macros is also not for the top-elite user; the recording process is intuitive, and he doesn't need to know any VBA coding.
@drac
What Microsoft did was just think about performance, ease of access and reduction of time spent to accomplish a task. The Redmond Guys realized that only a small percentage of the users actually had patience to navigate and explore those drop-down menus... so they created the ribbon. Before, 3 or 4 clicks were necessary to get to a goal, many of them required at least one right click. Now, with no more than two the user gets there. Also, the keyboard shortcuts are VIM-like and very efficient: they appear on the screen and the user doesn't have to lay his hands off the keyboard.
Last, not least, the functions are grouped by functionality along tabs and groups. Very intuitive. How come that is not very convenient?