Scrap operations

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RightPaddock
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Scrap operations

Post by RightPaddock » 2013 Nov 02, 02:09

Is there any way to configure Scrap so that the Del & Shift/Del keys operate normally - and Ctrl/Del removes the selected item(s) from scrap.

Is there any way to view a scrap window in a pane of the main program. I often wish I could use inter-pane functions such as F5 and F6 to copy and move, or Alt/Enter to open a folder shortcut's referenced folder in the opposite pane etc.

thanks RP
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Re: Scrap operations

Post by nikos » 2013 Nov 02, 09:31

#1, no, the best I can recommend is to put the delete and trash buttons on the toolbar for easy access

#2, do you know about the miniscrap pane? See View menu

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Re: Scrap operations

Post by Kilmatead » 2013 Nov 02, 10:20

Considering RightPaddock's been here long enough to answer his own ergonomic questions :wink:, we can treat this thread as a feature request thingy, as it was obviously intended (a point which Nikos missed wildly).

Interestingly enough, ever since I couldn't figure out a way of conveniently substituting LocalSearch for <Ctrl+F>, I decided to just give in and write a "watcher/TSR" script as other users have done - you know, one of those things that runs in the background using virtually no resources but when it sees that you're using a hotkey in a particular window (such as scrap windows) it substitutes whatever key/function you prefer.

For example, aside from getting LocalSearch to work everywhere (including the desktop), I set it so that hitting <Esc> in an empty scrap container will close that container permanently (a convenient way of getting rid of failed search windows quickly).

While I was at it, I randomly added the ability to use <Win+C> to centre any active window (not just scrap, or resized x2) in the monitor, which is something I probably should have done a zillion years ago. :roll:

Anyway, using this method (which is useful for your system as a whole instead of just limiting it to x2), the hotkey suggestions of <Del>, etc, are very easy for anyone to add themselves. All you have to verify is that the active window's classname is "ATL:ScrapFrame" (user32.dll API GetClassNameW) and you're hoppin'.

Naturally none of this should be necessary if Nikos knew anything about logic and GUI design in the first place, but we're not here because of the canapés - so it's just food for thought; it's easier to empower yourself than to wait for Nikos (God forbid and heaven forefend) to actually accede a few minor user requests every once in awhile. :D

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Re: Scrap operations

Post by RightPaddock » 2013 Nov 02, 12:57

nikos wrote:#1, no, the best I can recommend is to put the delete and trash buttons on the toolbar for easy access
That assumes I have the button bar displayed, from that you can assume that I don't.

Thanks for the suggestion K, but I'd prefer to stick with the Delete and Permanently Delete context menu items. I was hoping that some of the ' secret' keyboard shortcrust numbers might be antialiased to the Scrap Pane Delete functions :roll: .
nikos wrote:#2, do you know about the miniscrap pane? See View menu
If that's the panel that I keep under my tree in which I keep 'templatey' things that I frequently copy, then the answer is yes and in that case its busy doing a job

One of my main uses of the scrap pane results from doing browse flats, I think X2 would be much enhanced if one could browse flat in situ - much like one can drill down into a zip or a folder symlink

RP
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Re: Scrap operations

Post by BRX » 2013 Nov 02, 14:16

RightPaddock wrote:Is there any way to view a scrap window in a pane of the main program. I often wish I could use inter-pane functions such as F5 and F6 to copy and move, or Alt/Enter to open a folder shortcut's referenced folder in the opposite pane etc.
Correctly NIkos hinted to the miniscrap. Sadly Nikos also ignored to notice the "feature request" of inter-pane functions. ;-) That's the interesting thing IMO and really worth to consider. As far as I can see you can't interact with f5/f6/Ctrl F9 between a normal pane and the miniscrap. I've wanted to suggest that for a long time already.

So I suggest the following features (all in one-pane-mode to avoid confusion with a second pane/target and only when minscrap is active).

f5/f6 from pane to miniscrap => add to miniscrap without actual copying
f5 from miniscrap to pane => copying to pane
f6 from miniscrap to pane => (maybe) moving from actual location to pane (maybe not, since this is kin to the Del/Ctrl-Del thing
Ctrl-F9 => Comparing miniscrap contents with pane
alt-Enter in pane => flatten in miniscrap

What do you think?

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Re: Scrap operations

Post by Kilmatead » 2013 Nov 02, 14:24

And, in case Nikos is still paying attention, since the "Copy/Move to..." options are available in Scrap Widows (not the miniscrap, oddly), but force you to manually select a folder (as there is no "opposite pane"), it would be nice if he were to look into calling the IFileOpenDialog object with the FOS_PICKFOLDERS flag instead of defaulting to the medieval "Folder Select" window. Anyone on Vista, Win7, or Win8 would thank you furiously.

Just a thought. :shrug:

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Re: Scrap operations

Post by Kilmatead » 2013 Nov 02, 14:41

BRX wrote:What do you think?
Technically, all of that can be accomplished with drag & drop, no? Of course, we lose out on the Robust actions, never mind that dragging and dropping on a laptop without a mouse is the futility of madmen and bearded virgins.

But I definitely agree with the idea of flattening to the miniscrap instead of a full Scrap Window. Maybe miniscrap context menu options like Copy-to Left/Right Pane... etc... :shrug:

In fact I would shunt all actions (like Searching) to the docked miniscrap as well. I'm not a fan of millions of scrap windows floating free - though that paradigm has its place too.

The problem is many users are not aware that the scrap containers don't actually hold real objects themselves, they only hold pointers to those objects, so explaining the limitations and advantages of such a system can be confusing (when it comes to such feature requests). People start thinking of stuff like Q-Dir, not really understanding that scraps are just virtual containers with the benefits and limitations therein.

Another part of the problem is that Nikos himself doesn't conceive of the miniscrap as anything other than a bunch of glorified semi-static bookmarks, so he doesn't like to consider the bigger picture. (At least that's the impression he gives.)

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Re: Scrap operations

Post by RightPaddock » 2013 Nov 02, 22:33

I use the mini scrap in the manner nikos conceives of it, a collection of things that are always available irrespective of the contents of the other two panes. Its contents are 'fixed' until I explicitly add or remove something - I like it that way. When I want to copy something from there (and only ever want to copy from there) I use ctrl/c, navigate to the target location and then ctrl/v - they are small objects so a feeble no frills coffee and pasta is adequate.

If flattening to the miniscrap pane became the mandatory norm then I can't imagine I'd ever upgrade X2 - at least not in this lifetime.


In a scrap pane I can rename things in the 'normal' way by tapping F2, including the use of X2's rename gadget on multiple items. I make frequent and productive use of this facility when looking at flattened folders, so it baffles me why I can't delete things in the 'normal' way - with the Del and Shift/Del keys.

Incidentally when I rename a bunch of items say from "zdata.zip" to "$C - .$E", I usually have to refresh the window manually with ctrl/r to check that the rename worked on all items (it always does but...) - is this just happening for me, or is happening for other people too.

nikos I trust you've not forgotten your promise to give Scrap panes a meaningful title - e.g. the Search term or the Browse Flat folder path that led to their creation, any timeframe on that enhancement.

offtopic 1 Could the "Keyboard use..." dialogue be made non modal so that it can be viewed whilst customising the keyboard.

offtopic 2 Could the two panes have separate filter boxes - or allow the user to have the filter box but not the address bar. When the latter gets focus it takes over, I can't navigate elsewhere via the keyboard - I have to use the <expletive deleted> rodent!

:idea: Maybe the Browse flat feature could have three variants:
  • a) To a Free Floating Scrap Pane - i.e. the status quo;
    b) To the Mini-Scrap Pane for those who want it to behave as an Anchored Maxi-Scrap Pane;
    c) To the Current Pane/Tab for 'normal' people like me.
RP
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Re: Scrap operations

Post by nikos » 2013 Nov 03, 06:28

if I was to redesign xplorer2 from scratch I would allow maxi-scraps in any window. However as things stand, there's no chance. A rewrite from scratch would be the only solution

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Re: Scrap operations

Post by Kilmatead » 2013 Nov 03, 07:49

RightPaddock wrote:I trust you've not forgotten your promise to give Scrap panes a meaningful title - e.g. the Search term or the Browse Flat folder path that led to their creation, any timeframe on that enhancement.
He already did, in his own limited fashion - Scrap containers now have the Window -> Set Title menu option so you can manually call it whatever you like.

I (naturally) already added this as automatic in the latest version of LocaleSearch for x2, because the whole point of that add-on is to search selected/targeted folders, so it made sense to rename the window accordingly. As Nikos doesn't understand that concept as whole, he's not likely to progress beyond the manual approach, misbelieving that to be the paragon of choice. :shrug:
RightPaddock wrote:I use the mini scrap in the manner nikos conceives of it, a collection of things that are always available irrespective of the contents of the other two panes. Its contents are 'fixed' until I explicitly add or remove something - I like it that way.
I never suggested that be changed - if people like it like that, so be it - it just seems reasonable to me for a simple option that says "Redirect Search/Flatten Results to Miniscrap Instead" in the same way as he seems to think commandeering the console window is a good thing... why force people to have extra windows open if they aren't necessary? Never mind that Windows sometimes has a fit and changes the z-order so the new windows open behind x2, which (next to Scabies) has got to be the most infuriating thing in the world.
RightPaddock wrote:When the [addressbar] gets focus it takes over, I can't navigate elsewhere via the keyboard - I have to use the <expletive deleted> rodent!
Hitting <Esc> when the addressbar has focus automatically returns focus to the active pane - for me, at least, no mouse necessary. :shrug:

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Re: Scrap operations

Post by Kilmatead » 2013 Nov 03, 10:56

nikos wrote:...maxi-scraps...
Umm... is that the official term we're using now? Somehow that just seems so wrong... unless our demographic is changing...

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Re: Scrap operations

Post by RightPaddock » 2013 Nov 03, 11:26

nikos wrote:if I was to redesign xplorer2 from scratch I would allow maxi-scraps in any window. However as things stand, there's no chance. A rewrite from scratch would be the only solution
I sort of suspected that - never mind with a bit of luck there'll be another lifetime.
Kilmatead wrote:Never mind that Windows sometimes has a fit and changes the z-order so the new windows open behind x2, which (next to Scabies) has got to be the most infuriating thing in the world.
I have also noticed this - but my perception is that the new windows are opened in 'front' of X2, whereupon X2 jumps to the 'front', which can completely obscure them if they are small windows - e.g opening a small image in a zip with IV is the most consistent incidence of the annoyance. I avoid it by using menu key/o rather than Enter - an advantage of being mouse averse is that there's almost always another fast keyboard way to achieve a result.

Added Re the Scrap Pane Window Title - least said soonest mended, I'll let that one go through to the keeper etc etc <sigh> Imagine if newspapers did not print the name of the publication on every page - you might think you was reading the Grauniad when in fact you were reading the Torygraph.

When I hit escape in the Address bar I arrive in the Filter Box and that's a dead end - normally I can tab out of there to the active pane but if I escape out of the address bar into the Filter Box then that's it. I only recently I ticked View->Toolbars->Address Bar so I could use the Filtering. So I'm guessing I have some badly configured keyboard customisations. There were problems with other customisations when I upgraded from 1.8 to 2.4, I suspect this is a late breaking manifestation of the upgrade. Now I know what should work I have something to aim at.

RP
Last edited by RightPaddock on 2013 Nov 03, 12:09, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Scrap operations

Post by Kilmatead » 2013 Nov 03, 11:56

RightPaddock wrote:...my perception is that the new windows are opened in 'front' of X2, whereupon X2 jumps to the 'front', which can completely obscure them if they are small windows...
Quite right, they do... once upon a time in a kingdom far far away (back when fgagnon read bedtime stories to new users), he investigated it, and found this sort of thing. I remember playing around with it, but always found it unpredictable no matter what ForegroundLockTimeout was set to. :shrug:

That same inconsistency still stands: for example, if I select something in x2 and use <Ctrl+S> to intentionally send it to a maxipad container [sic], it always gets overlayed by the current x2 window, to end up in z-order - 1. But if I use other commands, such as browse-flat, the maxipad opens, keeps the focus, and stays (as expected) on top of x2.

If it was at least consistent I wouldn't mind it so much.

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Re: Scrap operations

Post by RightPaddock » 2013 Nov 03, 12:33

Kilmatead wrote:But if I use other commands, such as browse-flat, the maxipad opens, keeps the focus, and stays (as expected) on top of x2.

If it was at least consistent I wouldn't mind it so much.
Interesting that its been around so long

But I can't recall ever experiencing this annoyance until I upgraded from 1.8 to 2.4. And whilst I have changed my usage patterns somewhat, this "where did that window go" phenomena happens on operations I've always performed - eg opening a small image in a zip with my default image viewer, Irfan View, via Enter or double click. I've tried 2 other viewers they also get hijacked/clobbered/gazumped/bullied by X2 - as you say its very annoying.

rp
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Re: Scrap operations

Post by Kilmatead » 2013 Nov 03, 16:29

RightPaddock wrote:When I hit escape in the Address bar I arrive in the Filter Box and that's a dead end - normally I can tab out of there to the active pane but if I escape out of the address bar into the Filter Box then that's it.
Posts are getting criss-crossed here from editing, but at least we're still in the neighbourhood.

I cannot reproduce this issue at all - hitting <Tab> in the addressbar does not shunt me to the filterbar - in fact, hitting <Tab> in the addressbar doesn't do anything at all - focus remains where it is. The only way for me to get from the addressbar to the filterbar by keyboard is to use <Alt+Right-Arrow>. If focus is in either the addressbar or the filterbar <Esc> always returns to the active pane.

As a test, I just nuked my settings and the behaviour remains exactly the same. Does this happen for you all the time, or only under "certain" conditions? What happens if you temporarily do a "Bambi's Mum" on your settings?

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