losing a customer?

Discussion & Support for xplorer² professional

Moderators: fgagnon, nikos, Site Mods

Kilmatead
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Posts: 4569
Joined: 2008 Sep 30, 06:52
Location: Dublin

Re: losing a customer?

Post by Kilmatead » 2015 Feb 28, 13:49

namsupo wrote:I find your desire for a "lifetime licence" of the software you use kind of curious. Doesn't that just lock you in to the one product indefinitely?
Most "lifetime" licenses operate in a transparent way - for example a rather cheap WinRAR license essentially lasts forever, so you don't even need to think about it. Does that mean I have to always use WinRAR? No, but I do anyway. The same applies to popular things like Malewarebytes - €20 and you're done, for life. Other software (like x2) usually just tack on an extra %50 of the normal license cost and then it too becomes eternal. When I first bought x2 back in 2008 it was nice and simple that way... recently Nikos started splintering things and confusing the blind punters by moving the furniture, but I suppose it all works out in the end.

I'll grant you the logic of it falls down if the price of a lifetime-license is set at (for example) 3-times the going rate of a regular license, but the reality of it doesn't bear out that extreme hypothesis.

My point was more that one could freely "go away" if a product starts being silly, then return a year later (if desired) at no extra cost. If you buy single-licenses all the time, you're usually stuck in the "Save 50% on upgrade licenses" model, where if you don't buy the upgrade (within time-period <x>) and then you want to come back a year or two later (after whatever you switched to previously turned to platypus-spittle) then you have to pay the %100 cost again of a new stock license which has no doubt increased by a magnitude in the intervening years.

Now true, we're not talking about massive amounts of money (relatively speaking), but - look at it this way - I'll be the guy standing outside the window of that restaurant you were at before, smoking a working-class cigarette in the rain and plotting my revenge for the injustice of inequality and doing my bit for the revolution. I'll also get arrested trying to hotwire that Ferrari of yours, get sent to prison to learn how to be a better thief, end up finding the majesty of God and then sheltering the future participants of the revolution under my parish roof while the Gestapo of your future gated communities beat them down in the streets! So it'll all work out in the end for me (give or take a few knife wounds), while all you get is a nice bottle of wine which evaporates on the wind. :D

And yes, I do live life through the guise of my own little opera. What good is being your own librettist if you don't crush the tiny violins of your enemies with an overweight diva? Answer me that, and then I'll buy your annual licenses and drink your fêted fetid wines! :lol:
nikos wrote:the fashionistas that they need to get whatever is hot
The ribbon is not hot - what universe are you living in? It's just one more thing to turn bloody off. :wink: Yes, there's always going to be a few kids who like it, but that still doesn't amount to being functionally superior to actually adding - like, you know - real stuff? (Maybe if I speak "in da vernacular" it'll sink in...) You want to see real ridiculous bling? That Dopus thing has a few settings which will literally make the fucused items glow and subtly emphasis their actual text-size within the listview itself as you mouse-over/select them. It's an astonishingly silly way to make your eyes bleed. No doubt there are some people who like it, but it's laughable to everyone else. On that scale the ribbon doesn't even warrant a mention.

Robert2
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 606
Joined: 2004 Jun 17, 15:39

Re: losing a customer?

Post by Robert2 » 2015 Feb 28, 17:23

Here is food for thought.

Googling for “ribbon interface vs classical menus” gives a majority of results from people asking “how can I get the ‘Classic’ menus back?”

This said, here is from FIRST LIBREOFFICE USER RESEARCH SURVEY CLOSED:
A big part of the survey dealt with the preferences in using software. It looks like we found quite some interesting results. For example, a question about ribbon interfaces polarizes the users: while 23% of the users strongly prefer ribbon interfaces, 20% reject them (extreme values on a semantic differential). A fact we will evaluate further, so stay tuned!
From Ribbon (computing):
A reason behind the negative reaction is Microsoft's decision to abandon backward-compatibility and remove the traditional menu system, rather than leave it as an option that could be activated if needed. Users of previous versions had to relearn the user interface in order to accomplish what they already knew how to do, and some configuration options were eliminated.[37] The decision to abolish menus has been likened to the Coca-Cola company's infamous New Coke campaign in its abandonment of the existing user base.[38] Microsoft Office 2011 for the Macintosh, while employing the ribbon, also retains the menu system in the Mac menu bar.[39]

Staniek notes that the ribbon concept has historically appeared extensively as "tabbed toolbars" in applications such as Sausage Software's HotDog, Macromedia HomeSite, Dreamweaver and Borland Delphi.[40] Lotus developed early ribbon UIs for its product eSuite. Screen shots are still available in an IBM redbook about eSuite (page 109ff).[42]
From http://en.libreofficeforum.org/node/270?page=1
The role that is appropriate for LO, OO, etc, is as an alternative to MSO for those applications where the user does not need the full power of MSO. In the early days, both products looked fairly similar, and I could use OO in many cases without my user even noticing the difference. Now that is no longer the case. While I like LO and admire the effort that has gone into the product, it looks and functions like MSO from 10 years ago. Most people now are used to the Ribbon interface, and, judging by the comments from my office workers, actually like the Ribbon. I installed LO on three computers today, and the first comment I heard was "Wow, this looks really different!" Different is fine in some cases. This is not one of them.

No one is asking for LO to switch exclusively to a Ribbon interface, just that we have the option of choosing whichever interface best suits our needs. Isn't that what open source is supposed to be about? Choice?

The ribbon ui is not necessarily bad. at first it appears that way because all the buttons are moved around. if you were to take a little time to customize the ribbon to fit your usage for this program then the argument that the ui is inefficient is gone. Second libre office can make a choice of UI's for the user. Autodesk has already done this with their apps. They have a ribbon UI and a toolbar UI and the user can pick. This seems to please both sides of the argument.

I don't understand why LO is taking so long to implement the ribbon UI personally i believe that they are killing the software because i've been using it for years and have used office also and when the ribbon UI came out I played with it for a day or so and by the end of the week i was hooked LO feels like a software from 15yrs ago and thats bad IT'S KINDA LIKE TABBED BROWSING WHICH DO U PREFER THE TABS OR OPENING A HUNDRED WINDOWS!!! COME ON PEOPLE TECHNOLOGY MOVES FORWARD FOR A REASON!! I STOPPED USING LO because the software feels so old and outdated even if its better under the hood the ribbon interface just makes more sense like i said ITS LIKE TABBED BROWSING!!!

The MS ribbon works fine.

And even if you don't think so, it makes the old menu system of LibreOffice look dated and gives the impression it is a product lacking innovation - an 'if it's not broke don't fix it' kind of product.
People rarely like to go backwards in software (even if the older version is better in some ways). Unless you want it to look like legacy work it may be time to innovate and pretty-it-up.

Hey, I have a question to all ribbon-opposition
Did you ever use MS Office ribbon UI on netbook/notebook?
Especially comparing LO vs MS ribbon in tasks such as making paragraphs, bolding, underlining, footer and header on page?
I did, and I WOULD have use ribbon in LO if it ever exists.
I mean, of course, using touchpad to do such things while listening to an lecture in college.
This is unable to do in normal UI while clicking many of menus (disappearing and thereby – annoying) by touchpad
People would like to make the choice too

Most of this thread seems to be about Form over Functionality, in a general sense. I sense that the pro Ribbon UI folks are arguing about Function, but failing to be specific about what features they need that they can’t get or find in the LO interface.
Form should follow Function. A solid understanding of what features and functions and how people prefer to access them, must come before the development of a new UI. Especially if LibreOffice wants to be a true alternative and not just a free clone of MS:Office.
1) Both of those mock-up interfaces are quite nice, actually. The problem with changing to the MS Office interface, from what I can tell with myself and what others have written, is that they can no longer find specific functions that have been in place since MS:O 95 or ’98 that basically set the current standard LO still uses.
However, the Ribbons are greatly customizable if you take the time to do so. Unfortunately, most software, now, has to be easy and intuitive in 5 minutes, or less, to attain adoptability. This is likely where the LO community backlash to the Ribbon UI comes from. It takes a few hours to figure the system out and re-configure everything to how and where you want it if moving from MS:O 2003 or from OOo or LO. This is also where I get behind the mock-ups you posted. They are quickly and easily intuitive to even a half-literate person.
2) I agree with many of the people that say, at this point, the UI for LO is likely it’s biggest drawback in bringing in new users. It does look dated, as numerous other folks have pointed out. In particular, this hurts LO’s ability to convince schools to adopt. In the U.S., at least, FOSS took a big hit when Ubuntu first pushed Edubuntu out 6 or 7 years ago. Administrators and Educators have still not gotten over that debacle and refuse to touch anything Free and Open Source because of that experience.

I see here a lot of comments of, I suppose, ‘older’ office users or users that never worked with office2007+ for longer than a couple of hours. Granted there is an (un-)learning curve for all those officexp- and free office aficionados. I’ve been using office software for over 30years. For new users and for users not stuck in a rut the ribbon interface is a big improvement. No endless searching through endless amounts of menu items or obscure toolbar icons, the ribbon interface offers a logical selection of what is needed and avoids screen clutter. Btw screen real-estate. If I want to concentrate on text the ribbon is out of view with one click.

Being highly customizable is of course not something that advances over a menu/toolbar interface. They both offer that feature.
From Ribbon with C++:
The ribbon is an innovative way to expose functionality to the user. You can see from the image that the ribbon is composed from tabs, where each tab has groups with buttons, check-boxes, combo-boxes, image galleries, etc.
It may look like just another toolbar layout, but it’s so much more than that.
First, the ribbon exposes all the application functions. No more endless menu items hiding your needed feature in a deep sub-menu you can never find.
Second, the UI is consistent. The ribbon is the only place to look for a feature. You no longer need to search through menus, toolbars and dialogs.

namsupo
Member
Member
Posts: 49
Joined: 2007 Aug 29, 02:02

Re: losing a customer?

Post by namsupo » 2015 Feb 28, 19:44

That Dopus thing has a few settings which will literally make the fucused items glow and subtly emphasis their actual text-size within the listview itself as you mouse-over/select them
I actually don't mind a bit of bling in a UI although I know some people find it distracting, or are just pathologically opposed to it (their view of user interface design having been firmly established in the 1970s I suspect). As long as there are options to turn it off I don't see the harm (which is why the ribbon just warrants gentle teasing rather than an all-out declaration of war).

That glowing text thing sounded exciting so I went looking for the option to turn it on in Dopus, but it appears not to exist :cry: Unless you just mean the normal Windows listview highlighting the text as you move the mouse over it?
I'll be the guy standing outside the window of that restaurant you were at before, smoking a working-class cigarette in the rain and plotting my revenge for the injustice of inequality and doing my bit for the revolution
You're wrong about me, I am most definitely not the 1% :)

User avatar
drac
Bronze Member
Bronze Member
Posts: 140
Joined: 2013 Jan 08, 00:14

Re: losing a customer?

Post by drac » 2015 Feb 28, 20:30

Kilmatead has again made my point that his contributions to this forum are a big plus that other file managers just do not have. And that is not to take away from some of the posts, above, from other users.

Kilmatead is correct about my affection for Macrium Reflect. I, too, just upgraded to V6. I am not using any of the new features as yet. And since I seldom need to do a restore I have not experienced the major speed increase that Kilmatead refers to. I like it because it is a very reliable product. Bugs are fixed quickly. Support is very good on the forum. The developers LISTEN to the users (for the most part) and add features or make changes that users ask for - BUT not every change that is asked for.

Products like dopus are almost the opposite - they make changes CONSTANTLY. A few changes are bug fixes but most are adding functionality. Most of that functionality is in areas of the program that would interest hard core users, only. That is similar to most of the changes I see in X2. While X2 does not have an "official" manual, dopus does and it is over 800 pages and probably growing. That is a lot to deal with for a person that is not a computer super user. Sometimes less is more.

One similarity between Reflect and Dopus is that neither is cheap. I like (nay, demand) good product support. I am willing to pay more for a product to get that level of service. How can a lifetime license help me with that? There is no incentive for the developer to provide good support, add requested features, etc. if there is not going to be a payday for his/her efforts. Maybe Nikos put part of those lifetime license funds in the bank and lives off the interest (though I doubt it). One reason I upgrade to new versions even if I do not need all the features is to support the developer to keep the good service, keep the product current and keep those new features coming. No, I did not upgrade to the new X2 because there just wasn't enough there to make it worthwhile for me. But I am still here and may upgrade to V4 if it adds functionality that is useful to ME.

Kilmatead
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Posts: 4569
Joined: 2008 Sep 30, 06:52
Location: Dublin

Re: losing a customer?

Post by Kilmatead » 2015 Feb 28, 20:40

drac wrote:And since I seldom need to do a restore I have not experienced the major speed increase that Kilmatead refers to.
I treat my "live" system as a sort sandboxed virtual system (without the sandbox part), so I generally do volume restores at least once a day. Impractical, but oh so much fun. Such as now, when I just re-installed Dopus to check something (below). I don't trust it to uninstall properly, so I do it manually. Delta Restore is the greatest thing since sliced antelope heart sandwiches downed in English mustard. :D
namsupo wrote:That glowing text thing sounded exciting so I went looking for the option to turn it on in Dopus, but it appears not to exist :cry: Unless you just mean the normal Windows listview highlighting the text as you move the mouse over it?
Perhaps I was misremembering but I was more thinking of the Display -> Transition Animations that had my eyes screaming for help until I figured out how to disable them. A quick reinstall doesn't seem to show them working now even though the settings are there... but things like "grow up" and "zoom in" are what come to mind. Not sure why they're not working. :shrug: I could be wrong about the glowing - but I do remember underline-flashing and other carnival-lightshow stuff going on amidst all the "zooming" and "cross-fading" and the Aye Yai Yai...
namsupo wrote:You're wrong about me, I am most definitely not the 1%
If you can toss away a dinner that costs thrice the price of a Dopy License, you're a few percentage points closer to it than I. :wink: My frozen pizza costs €2.99 plus the €0.50p on the house ESB meter to stick it in the oven.

pj
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 414
Joined: 2006 Jan 26, 14:01
Location: Florida

Re: losing a customer?

Post by pj » 2015 Feb 28, 21:24

nikos wrote:... What can be added to xplorer2 without making it everything and the kitchen sink type?
Oh, Oh -- Teacher, I know that answer!!!

A. P. I.

Being able to AUTOMATE file management tasks in a serious manner. I fall back to Excel and VBA to create file management routines because X2 plods along one click/key at a time, and I have to be there the whole time. That will add considerably more value than Ribbon GUIs.

------------------------------
PJ in (watching Kentucky beat Arkansas!!!!) FL

User avatar
nikos
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 14763
Joined: 2002 Feb 07, 15:57
Location: UK
Contact:

Re: losing a customer?

Post by nikos » 2015 Mar 01, 16:32

wrt scripting what I say is if you are so wizz kid and you do scripting, you don't need me to reinvent xplorer2 from the inside, you can just use scripting shell objects to do what you want (I blogged about these things many times)
drac wrote:How can a lifetime license help me with that? There is no incentive for the developer to provide good support, add requested features, etc
that's the first time I heard that lifetime covers are in the interest of the developer!? People are telling me that offering lifetime covers are no way for a long term sustainable business so I am thinking of stopping selling them.

User avatar
drac
Bronze Member
Bronze Member
Posts: 140
Joined: 2013 Jan 08, 00:14

Re: losing a customer?

Post by drac » 2015 Mar 01, 20:40

Nikos,

My point was that a lifetime license is not in anyone's interest. It hurts the developer in the long run (though if they are unscrupulous they can get a bunch of money quickly then abandon the project) because it is not a sustainable business model especially in a niche market. It hurts the user for the reasons I stated above, possibly reducing the number of upgrades and the features in each.

The lifetime license may appeal to someone with very limited funds who (naively) expects the developer will be able to use that license money to continue providing high quality service and improved versions. As namsupo tried to point out, an upgrade is not that expensive when compared to the normal costs of living. And despite Kilmatead's comments, I suspect that Kilmatead spends more on libations in a week than it would cost to upgrade to a new version of X2 every couple of years. :lol:

sanferno
Silver Member
Silver Member
Posts: 278
Joined: 2013 Nov 30, 18:40

Re: losing a customer?

Post by sanferno » 2015 Mar 01, 22:42

drac wrote:The lifetime license may appeal to someone with very limited funds who (naively) expects the developer will be able to use that license money to continue providing high quality service and improved versions.
Spanish, research field, almost three years unemployed for getting PhD... For me, cost is important. I understand completely lifetime licenses are bad business for developers in the long run but, for customers like me, it's the better choice when you really appreciate the product and you really need it for daily use.

User avatar
pschroeter
Silver Member
Silver Member
Posts: 266
Joined: 2007 Jan 27, 00:46

Re: losing a customer?

Post by pschroeter » 2015 Mar 01, 23:38

namsupo wrote:Looks like the ribbon wasn't such a great idea :)

http://www.xyplorer.com/xyfc/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13460

You know it's optional, right?

I'm not using the Ribbon and I like the new Rename function and love having access to my saved filters in the Autofilter menu.

Tuxman
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Posts: 1507
Joined: 2009 Aug 19, 07:49

Re: losing a customer?

Post by Tuxman » 2015 Mar 02, 10:18

Kilmatead wrote:
nikos wrote:the fashionistas that they need to get whatever is hot
The ribbon is not hot
YMMV. I saw some girls in too tight pants and wished they were ribbons.
Tux. ; tuxproject.de ; Windows 10 x64
registered xplorer² pro user since Oct 2009, ultimated in Mar 2012

User avatar
nikos
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 14763
Joined: 2002 Feb 07, 15:57
Location: UK
Contact:

Re: losing a customer?

Post by nikos » 2015 Mar 02, 10:45

just curious, is there anybody using the ribbon in this forum?

Tuxman
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Posts: 1507
Joined: 2009 Aug 19, 07:49

Re: losing a customer?

Post by Tuxman » 2015 Mar 02, 11:23

Maybe you should add a poll?
Tux. ; tuxproject.de ; Windows 10 x64
registered xplorer² pro user since Oct 2009, ultimated in Mar 2012

pj
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 414
Joined: 2006 Jan 26, 14:01
Location: Florida

Re: losing a customer?

Post by pj » 2015 Mar 02, 17:14

nikos wrote:wrt scripting what I say is if you are so wizz kid and you do scripting, you don't need me to reinvent xplorer2 from the inside, you can just use scripting shell objects to do what you want (I blogged about these things many times)
Nikos, correct that scripts of many varieties can be written to post process a list of files. The real power of x2 is creating those lists through flattening, filtering, search, etc. That front-end to the post-processing scripts would put x2 into a class above all other file MANAGERS.

--------------------------------
PJ in (still waiting for the fix for jumpy panes) FL

User avatar
nikos
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 14763
Joined: 2002 Feb 07, 15:57
Location: UK
Contact:

Re: losing a customer?

Post by nikos » 2015 Mar 02, 17:30

what about ctrl+B command?

Post Reply