deskrule 1106 beta

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dunno
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Re: deskrule 1106 beta

Post by dunno » 2016 Jan 02, 02:53

drac wrote: You want multithreaded applications because you think they are going to make your computer more efficient or seem faster.
You're still not getting my point.
I want my mouse to function (multi task) when my pc chokes on some bloatware which has hogged all resources, how that is achieved is up to you genius programmers, my low tech solution is to do gardening when my pc chokes, it's coming along just fine thanks to bloatware.

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drac
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Re: deskrule 1106 beta

Post by drac » 2016 Jan 02, 21:14

Dunno,

Oh. That is very different then multithreading. In the days gone by, when I was working in the guts of computers. the mouse and other peripherals used interrupts to signal data was waiting. Not sure if that is still done. If not, it would partly explain why the mouse locks up. With interrupts, there should never be a mouse lockup.

Now you are getting into one of those areas that I would lump in with poor design decisions. Interrupts MAY have been eliminated to save hardware costs. The OS should protect itself from runaway programs, but you are correct that it often doesn't. The reality is that USERS do not care about such things. They want features. A slow mouse does not occur that often in most user's system. Users do not realize what price they are paying for some of those features that make using a computer easier. Going back to one of my earlier posts, in the old days computers were for use by people with enough knowledge, training and technical savvy to deal with the steep learning curve. Dumbing down the user interface adds a LOT of bloat. So assign the blame where it belongs. It is not programmers that are the cause of the bloat - it is ultimately the non-technical users who wanted in on the whole computer experience - that resulted in the bloat. And because those users were not willing to pay $3500 for a simple PC, all the shortcuts taken to lower the price reduced the ability of the OS program to operate at the levels it had in the past.

Not sure if Linux would give you the user experience you are looking for. But it is more likely to then Windows. Of course you may have to pay the price: more difficult to use, less help, fewer programs. I think there are Windows emulators that might give you the best of both worlds, but I would not hold my breath waiting for Windows to perform the way you want it too.

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Re: deskrule 1106 beta

Post by pj » 2016 Jan 02, 23:36

dunno wrote:...I want my mouse to function (multi task) when my pc chokes on some bloatware which has hogged all resources...
NOW we're talking about a specific problem -- response time!

Depending on what program you're running, the easiest solution is to add memory -- RAM -- to the PC. Many delays are caused by the OS paging memory out to the hard drive. That's controlled by the OS (Windows) and GREATLY slows down operations because Windows forces the system to a halt while the page is retrieved and loaded in memory. Programs contribute by allocating giganormous buffers to have available RAM easily and QUICKLY available to speed up operation of THEIR program.

Also avoid really bloated memory hogs, like Chrome. There are also some network service DLLs that can grab a GB just for fun.

And if all this free advice from Drac and others doesn't do a thing for you, then holding your breath for an extended period may just be the best solution. :wink: Gardening is another solution :bigsmile:
-----------------------------------
PJ in (back in the saddle -- chair, not pool lounge -- again) FL :party:

dunno
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Re: deskrule 1106 beta

Post by dunno » 2016 Jan 03, 03:04

pj wrote:the easiest solution is to add memory -- RAM -- to the PC.
and here I thought that 4GB RAM was enough.
pj wrote: Programs contribute by allocating giganormous buffers to have available RAM easily and QUICKLY available to speed up operation of THEIR program.
all programmers should do a apprenticeship at "Rockbox", where they are forced to work with 2M of RAM, and rockbox works beautifully on many different devices, that could be because the Scandanavian Dev's lay down the law, their compiler thingy is brutal. http://build.rockbox.org/dev.cgi
drac wrote:So assign the blame where it belongs. It is not programmers that are the cause of the bloat - it is ultimately the non-technical users who wanted in on the whole computer experience - that resulted in the bloat. And because those users were not willing to pay $3500 for a simple PC, all the shortcuts taken to lower the price reduced the ability of the OS program to operate at the levels it had in the past.
I don't agree with that design philosophy. Is it wrong for OEM's to give the users what they want?. Users demanded easy to use motor cars faster cars, the industry complied whilst re-engineering all facets of the vehicle. Users wanted quieter aircraft cabins, shorter traveling time, the industry complied, from piston engines to jet engines, avionics went from cogs and gears to "glass" displays, the paradigm shifts were enormous and successful in most technical fields, and yet a pc's users experience is stuck in a "choked" paradigm.

What I see in the PC field is that no matter what the hardware is, poorly designed software will always give the user a bad experience, this is not the users fault, the user wants to click and point, not a unreasonable request, it's up to the programmer to give him/her the best experience, in short there is no accountability for poorly designed software. I grinned from ear to ear when Steve Jobs told his fawning, admiring audience, "Flash Sucks, it's being removed from the store", that got buggy bloated Flash's attention.

Mr. Someone needs to crack the programmers whip.

Thank you all for your patience and information, 64Gig's of ram should be enough for everyone :evil:

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Re: deskrule 1106 beta

Post by Kilmatead » 2016 Jan 03, 13:46

dunno wrote:and here I thought that 4GB RAM was enough.
Not really - I'm switching to 16 whenever I can afford to replace the ageing workhorse I use now. I've had 4GB for years now and it just keeps feeling smaller and smaller.
dunno wrote:in short there is no accountability for poorly designed software.
Umm... "don't buy/use it" would be the market's response to that. :wink: Not saying they're right, but caveat emptor and all that. Dei facientes adiuvant.
dunno wrote:I grinned from ear to ear when Steve Jobs told his fawning, admiring audience, "Flash Sucks, it's being removed from the store", that got buggy bloated Flash's attention.
Hate to burst your bubble but that was just a typically hypocritical business decision wrapped up in "technical" propaganda rather than any great stand for the little guy. Steve Jobs never did anything if it wasn't in his best interests before everyone else's. :shrug: (It also didn't accomplish much, since Flash rumbled on for many years indifferently...)

Certainly, Flash should have obviously been decommissioned 10 years ago, but it was never going to happen with too many business interests tied up in it. The sheer number of stupid "games" that still earn money today (who plays them? Somebody must!) will ensure that Flash doesn't go anywhere anytime soon, regardless of industry claims. HTML5 will be replaced with something else long before it becomes any kind of standard.

dunno
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Re: deskrule 1106 beta

Post by dunno » 2016 Jan 03, 14:10

Kilmatead wrote: Umm... "don't buy/use it" would be the market's response to that. :wink: Not saying they're right, but caveat emptor and all that. Dei facientes adiuvant.
Indeed, try before you buy, rudely known as "pirating". :bigsmile:

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Re: deskrule 1106 beta

Post by Kilmatead » 2016 Jan 03, 14:23

It's not rude, it's practical. (Which brings us back to that Linux swagger. :wink:)

I make no secret of the fact that I pirate all the games I play... to be honest, I do actually buy them as well, but I never install/play the versions I pay for because they invariably require "Steam" these days, and I consider Steam to be extremely poorly written malware (did I spell it right that time?). So, despite purchased and valid licenses, I have always used pirated copies as (ironically!) they don't include malware (as long as you know where to get them). :shrug: Works for me.

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drac
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Re: deskrule 1106 beta

Post by drac » 2016 Jan 03, 21:18

Dunno,

If software is poorly designed, why do you buy it??? The auto industry has a LOT of competition and MANY levels of quality. Excluding the highest and lowest priced cars, there is at least a factor of 3 price difference between the bottom tier and the top tier. Even the airline industry has competition. So where is the competition in operating systems? Apple allows NONE and while there are a few that can be used on the PC, if you want access to the largest number of programs, your ONLY choice is Windows. So the MS monopoly and the patent battles that keep it in charge is what allows mediocrity in OS software. And it is ultimately the OS that is directly or indirectly responsible for most of the issues you talk about.

In most other areas of software there is competition so you can buy (or get free) a different word processor, file manager, game, browser, etc. Until there is an alternative to Windows or a major shift in philosophy at MS about spending a LOT of money fixing all those little, often invisible parts of the OS that cause most of the problems - at the expense of cool new features, then we will continue to have lots of frustrations. Would you be willing to pay $1500 for an OS that worked better, where there were no mouse hangups, no system lockups? If not, then you are part of the problem. I would love to have a Tesla at the price of a Honda. But I am not willing to pay $90,000 for a great car when I drive less than 6,000 miles a year. A Honda is a nice car, and while it is not a Tesla it is good enough for my needs. And it is that kind of thinking by tens of millions of people who use computers that allows poor quality software to win the battle in the marketplace. Long live DOS!

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Re: deskrule 1106 beta

Post by dunno » 2016 Jan 04, 02:58

drac wrote:If software is poorly designed, why do you buy it???
To support and reward the creators. but...after our discussion I realise that your way of thinking is predominant in the industry hence I WILL 'buccaneer' any shiny new cool looking bloatware from now on.

I have generously contributed to open source projects which are good, Rockbox was one, they're a fantastic group, The primary Dev's take care that their product is always developed to a high standard. their dev IRC was a good source of amusement as well, should've paid them extra for that alone :beer: it was amusing listening to them explain newly arrived composers that they want 'tab' for white space, not 'space space', their humor and patience as they gently informed the new arrivals "if you don't 'compose' to our form and standards we won't give you commit authority". case closed.

I'm old school hence my work ethic is diametrically opposite to yours, two different cultures really, and our cultures will never mix, you believe that your work ethic/desgin philosophy is correct, I disagree, there is no excuse for shoddy workmanship in any field, there is always two ways of doing something/anything, from coiling a garden hose to doing brain surgery, The right way or The wrong way.

deskrule, not tried yet.

*back on topic* :biggrin:

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drac
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Re: deskrule 1106 beta

Post by drac » 2016 Jan 04, 19:43

Dunno,

I am not sure why you think I do not place quality very high on the list. I am also "old school" and do my best to produce high quality work. And if someone finds an issue with my work I will do whatever it takes to fix the issue - even if I am not getting paid to do it. That is ME. But talking about the rest of the world - or at least large parts of it - that do NOT place a lot of emphasis on quality, or want it if it is free or cheap but NOT if it cost significantly more, that is a different matter. A major point in my previous post is that most people cannot afford or are not willing to pay more for better quality products. Some can - and do - insist on the best - they drive the "nice" cars, fly on private jets, etc. That is not my lot in life. However, I do pay more for my computers - I buy them from a small, custom system company that uses only the best components, does burn in on systems, etc. The computer is 35% more expense than a Dell but worth it to me. However that is about $400. Driving a Tesla would cost me $60,000 more than the Honda. Not willing to sell the house for a nicer car!

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