blog: all that jazz

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Tuxman
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Re: blog: all that jazz

Post by Tuxman » 2016 Sep 08, 06:57

I'm afraid Led Zeppelin started a decade too late to be an original.
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dunno
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Re: blog: all that jazz

Post by dunno » 2016 Sep 08, 08:41

Tuxman wrote:I'm afraid Led Zeppelin started a decade too late to be an original.
They predate that bunch of youngsters. So "Kashmir" isn't original, and neither is "Moby Dick" ?, really ?.
Which do you prefer, Pink Floyd pre Roger Waters or post, and do you think they're original ?, then listen to "The Church" and tell me who copied who.

I'm not qualified to trace the gene's of music, a tree of music life. Most build on someone else's work, Occasionally a genius or bunch of them make a lateral leap and produce something totally different, but there is still traces of the original DNA in whatever the final tune is.

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Re: blog: all that jazz

Post by Tuxman » 2016 Sep 08, 10:24

dunno wrote:Which do you prefer, Pink Floyd pre Roger Waters or post
There was no Pink Floyd before Roger Waters. There was, however, a Pink Floyd before David Gilmour and I liked it; but what I wanted to say was: There was a decade of rock music before Led Zeppelin had even grouped together.
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dunno
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Re: blog: all that jazz

Post by dunno » 2016 Sep 08, 10:57

Tuxman wrote:There was no Pink Floyd before Roger Waters.
True. Waters and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syd_Barrett were the founders of Pink Floyd.
There is a clear distinction between pre and post GILMOR, night and day.
Jethro Tull was way ahead of his time, fusing many types, but he didn't take, and so it goes.

Tuxman, I'm sorry I edited my post as you were posting, my apologies.
Last edited by dunno on 2016 Sep 08, 11:16, edited 2 times in total.

Tuxman
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Re: blog: all that jazz

Post by Tuxman » 2016 Sep 08, 11:12

-e- Well, thank you for making my comeback obsolete.
Last edited by Tuxman on 2016 Sep 08, 12:06, edited 1 time in total.
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Kilmatead
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Re: blog: all that jazz

Post by Kilmatead » 2016 Sep 08, 11:52

As a rule, I wouldn't lightly agree with Tuxman about anything :wink:, but in this case I will. Having spent most of my 16th year as a Pink Floyd fanatic (and I do mean fanatic) locked in a rather dark and dingy (yet comfortable) leather-bound shag-carpeted room with a fairly consistent level of LSD in my bloodstream, Syd Barrett (while a founding member) was not exactly the creative genius fan-dom has since lionised him to be. ("a" founding member is not the same thing as "the" founding member.)

Barrett gave the early years a (very dated) "style" and set the experimental tone, while Gilmour latterly perfected the "sound" itself, Waters (as proven by his writing consistency throughout their run (and after in his solo-career), provided the gestalt that was most opportunely shown not in the major albums, but most poignantly in the lesser-received Final Cut album.

Trust me, it pains me no end to agree with Tux on this, but having professed a Barrett-prominent view in my younger years, a much greater and painful reflection has tempered this enthusiasm towards his contribution (but, you know, I was under a suspect-chemical influence at the time). That said, his passing in 2006 did not go unnoticed.

And yes, for any non-fans reading this thread thinking that we've all gone and lost the plot, it cannot be stated strongly enough that this stuff really is of fundamental importance to the universe and our cosmic place in it. Really, it is. :D

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Re: blog: all that jazz

Post by dunno » 2016 Sep 08, 12:28

Gilmour was under the influence of this artist post Syd The Pros And Cons Of Hitch Hiking

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Re: blog: all that jazz

Post by Kilmatead » 2016 Sep 08, 12:58

Pros and Cons is post-Floyd and all Waters (despite being an alternate suggestion for The Wall), so I'm not sure what you mean. If you listen to Gilmour's solo work (such as "About Face"), he perpetuates the same sound he always has and (in a good way) likes to temper it to the sound of his voice (like, unsurprisingly, all of the post-Waters pseudo-Floyd pap they released).

Curiously, his latest album (released last year) is an absolutely abominable collection of extremely poor pop-diarrhoea with nary a decent tune to the bunch. It's actually so unbelievably bad that I would have doubted his involvement with it at all if it wasn't his voice. I guess having your son arrested/jailed for disrespecting a national monument takes its toll on your artistic endeavours. Something for Nikos to be aware of in future! :D

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Re: blog: all that jazz

Post by dunno » 2016 Sep 08, 13:15

Every artist has a distinctive style, a style which is innate, which might be suppressed depending on need to make money. When Syd was around the others tempered their styles due to his dictatorship, "art above all else", his style prevailed, when he was committed, a "style" power struggle ensued, result, Waters won..

The number of artists that have abandoned their primary artistic styles in order to put food on the table are many, even Velvet Underground went popular in a effort to put food on the table..

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Re: blog: all that jazz

Post by Tuxman » 2016 Sep 08, 13:53

dunno wrote:Every artist has a distinctive style
You wish. Have you ever actively listened to bands like Big Big Train (who strongly resemble Peter Gabriel's Genesis) or Starcastle (who were the better Yes when Yes declined to sound like the good Yes in the later 70s)?

And:
dunno wrote:even Velvet Underground went popular in a effort to put food on the table..
That's actually not true.

The Velvet Underground were proud to be unpopular (in fact, they didn't pander to the public perception) before and during their business relationship to Andy Warhol. After he had stopped managing the band, Stephen Sesnick who was running a club in Boston was accidentally hired as the band manager; unlike Warhol, he was more interested in money than in art, so he tried to get some hit potential off the band. Lou Reed, struggling to be a successful band leader (which ultimately led to Doug Yule replacing the "second leader" John Cale), happily obeyed; you'll notice that the post-Warhol songs are much more accessible than "White Light/White Heat".

It was also Sesnick who wanted to make money with the name alone even after the last original member (Maureen Tucker) had left the band for family reasons:
Doug Yule wrote:There was a cover band in 1973 - me and my brother and two other guys, doing rock 'n' roll tunes both Velvet Underground and non-Velvet Underground, and some original tunes. We met somebody who started booking us around New England. He was supposed to bill us as featuring me from The Velvet Underground, but he wasn't supposed to say it was The Velvet Underground. We played next to [Boston's] Fenway Park in Kenmore Square, probably our second-to-last show. The last show was some ski-place in Vermont or someplace; we drove in, saw "The Velvet Underground" and said, "That's the last straw."
It was not the band as a whole who wanted to get rich. Actually, Lou Reed was the only one of them who became rich by making music later, the other Velvets had their own underground career far from the radio and/or did something completely different (Sterling Morrison became a teacher, Doug Yule made violins) until and, again, after 1993.
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dunno
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Re: blog: all that jazz

Post by dunno » 2016 Sep 08, 14:05

Ok so you know all about VU's attempt to go popular including this horrible attempt at including your boss's wife in a song Vu - Niko.
What are your thoughts about Jethro Tull, was he ahead of his time, or just messing around with a flute ?.

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Re: blog: all that jazz

Post by Kilmatead » 2016 Sep 08, 14:08

dunno wrote:the others tempered their styles due to his dictatorship...
Methinks you're romanticising his extremely short career a bit much. There was no dictatorship (how could there be when he was the latecomer?) - he was basically a junkie with an underlying severe mental disability who wasn't even around during the early Sigma 6 years (unlike Waters, Mason and Wright) - like many bands, they were fluid in those times and tended (as Jethro Tull did) to stick with whatever sound and lineup they had when they got their first callback. Listen to his solo works (Madcap Laughs) and in particular the eponymous "Barrett", and the artistry just isn't there - though given that Waters and Gilmour both contributed to those albums, it's hard to distinguish the actual source when mates-cover-for-mates and didn't want to admit to themselves what was coming next.

One supposes they came to terms with that on Wish You Were Here, sound and all, but that's the stuff they don't tell biographers. :shrug:
dunno wrote:Every artist has a distinctive style, a style which is innate
Speaking of biographers, that's exactly the wording they use when they are desperately trying to avoid the term 'derivative' when applied to their larger cultural context - which, not coincidentally, is what started this ruckus. :wink: When Taylor Swift and Miley Cyrus finally release their Lesbo-Album (with annotated notes by Lady GaGa), that's when I'll sit up and take notice. Until then, there's a reason there were so many Gustav Klimt forgeries floating around the U.S. après-guerre - students learn best by copying, but grow most by throwing aside their earliest attempts at coveting "innateness".

Peter Gabriel... now there's a man who knows a thing or two about stylistic evolution through cultural anthropology - taught Paul Simon everything he had forgotten to learn when he was too busy chasing his own harmonics. :D
dunno wrote:...was he ahead of his time, or just messing around with a flute
Ian Anderson was ahead of his time (well, a short-lived musical movement of 1) - so he's both a visionary and a guy messing around with a pipe. Now he's a salmon-farmer, bless his single-footed perched stance. What can you do.

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Re: blog: all that jazz

Post by dunno » 2016 Sep 08, 14:21

Too many notes Sir, just too many darn notes to arrest., and they're everywhere

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Re: blog: all that jazz

Post by Tuxman » 2016 Sep 08, 14:27

dunno wrote:Ok so you know all about VU's attempt to go popular including this horrible attempt at including your boss's wife in a song Vu - Niko.
Too bad you don't know. Nico was not the wife of Andy Warhol, nor was she "included in a song". Her participation in the band (at least in 1966) was a result of Andy Warhol's engagement and, later, her romance with Lou Reed. She was, however, already gone when they became popular.

(Also, Jethro Tull was not the name of the musician.)
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Re: blog: all that jazz

Post by dunno » 2016 Sep 08, 14:30

In one of VU's songs, a band member says, quote. "electricity comes from a another planet" as Nico exits the studio, why would VU band members be so derogatory towards one of their own band members gf'swives ?.

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