Symmetry

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Kilmatead
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Re: Symmetry

Post by Kilmatead »

Tuxman wrote:...but also including licensing restrictions which make redistribution gross, at best.
The GNU LGPL doesn't seem very draconian... just the usual stuff about releasing source-code with it, etc, and probably not using it to scam little old ladies out of their poodle's inheritance money. :shrug: I always release code anyway, as people are about as likely to actually buy my nonsense as they are to buy your nonsense :wink:, so that type of licence is no skin off me.
Tuxman wrote:...didn't Turbo Pascal have Borland's compiler built-in? So you had a compiler - for a language other than C though
Worse than that, really - at the time I was using T-Pascal on the Commodore-64 (very few proper compilers were 6502/6510-compatible back then), and only in the "hopeful-stage" of getting a faux-IBM machine (lots of lawn-mowing that summer, and tin-collecting in the winter) - so... I had a lot of time to kill before I actually managed to get Borland C on a "real" PC, which is why I was stuck with the trusty K&R paperback for inspiration, and not much else to work with. It's astonishingly difficult to get your head around pointers just by trying to create an interpreter by using the described "expected" results found in a book and reverse-engineering the abstract logic behind it. It was a very long year. :D

Come to think of it though, it was probably rather good practice for how I do it now... do all the "real" programming only in my head as I work outdoors all day, and then transcribe it in the evenings into the IDE, hope it works, and do bugfixing on the weekends. (My head, unfortunately, does not have a built-in debugger, which strikes me as a real limitation in the human-design.) Anyway, that's how 14-year-olds used to have to do it before the internet made trolling a national past-time.

Update: After finally managing to get some GTK3+ examples compiled, I don't think this is such a good idea, as it feels way too hands-off for my tastes (event-handling doesn't feel natural), and distribution on Windows is a joke for smaller projects. Probably best to stick with the familiar granular control the WinAPI affords when on Windows, and just use any old thing on Linux for laughs, forgetting any ideas about perfect GUI parity between the two. Oh well, so much for that approach to grand unification.

What made me think of this in the first place was that I was impressed with the Linux release of Beyond Compare (they develop with Embarcadero/Delphi) and their GUI's are virtually identical between Windows and Linux (and probably Mac too, given their attention to detail) - probably the best I've seen for something that originally started out as a Windows-only project. Their licences are conveniently cross-platform too, which is why I tried it. Embarcadero have really gotten their act together in the last couple of years, since releasing their (ridiculously expensive) 64-bit toolchain. Such cross-overs usually start the other way around, and one of the versions always ends up looking like a "poor port" of the other, with bad DPI scaling, etc. This one stood out as an exception. I get the feeling whatever widgety-UI-thingy they're using has been highly tweaked in-house. :shrug: Anyway, it's an exception I'm certainly not going to be able to imitate any time soon, as I'm certainly not switching to Delphi just for twice the shiny. :D
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Re: Symmetry

Post by Tuxman »

Kilmatead wrote: 2017 Jun 04, 00:12 The GNU LGPL doesn't seem very draconian... (...) I always release code anyway
The relevant difference between the numerous open source licenses is not what you do with them, it is what others do with them. GNU's licenses, including the LGPL (which gracefully extends the linking permissions, hooray), are not much better than Microsoft's EULA and probably even worse than Microsoft's Public License.

I, personally, prefer the "release and forget" approach of the Public Domain, enforced by the WTFPL for us Germans who do not even know the right to put something into the Public Domain without having been dead for 70 years. Copyright laws are not really made for those who actually contribute something useful. :shrug:
Kilmatead wrote: 2017 Jun 04, 00:12 it was probably rather good practice for how I do it now... do all the "real" programming only in my head as I work outdoors all day, and then transcribe it in the evenings into the IDE, hope it works, and do bugfixing on the weekends.
That explains a lot, actually!
Kilmatead wrote: 2017 Jun 04, 00:12 Probably best to stick with the familiar granular control the WinAPI affords when on Windows, and just use any old thing on Linux for laughs, forgetting any ideas about perfect GUI parity between the two.
Perfect GUI parity is only possible with nearly identical desktop behavior; did you mean "visual parity" (which would result in a UI that looks terribly out of place in all but one environments)?
There is a solution for that: Jump on the yuppie train and write your applications in HTML/CSS/JS, earn my honest antipathy and enjoy your application overhead of more than 40 MiB because it comes with a built-in micro-Chrome plus most of its security flaws. Oh joy!
Kilmatead wrote: 2017 Jun 04, 00:12 What made me think of this in the first place was that I was impressed with Beyond Compare's Linux version (they develop with Embarcadero/Delphi) and their GUI's are virtually identical between Windows and Linux (...). Anyway, it's an exception I'm certainly not going to be able to imitate any time soon, as I'm certainly not switching to Delphi just for twice the shiny. :D
Delphi is ridiculously expensive indeed, but there is also Lazarus which is pretty OK if you don't need advanced database connectors or Android/iOS development tools. The IDE world has divided into hobbyists who can get (and live with) free stuff and enterprises which are asked for a lot of money which is mostly used for paying support costs and developers. It seems to pay their rents; and they are not alone with that: LispWorks "Professional" - the least expensive version with a built-in compiler as far as I know - starts at 1,200 € unless you are a school... hey, Nikos, have you considered business licensing yet? :biggrin:
Visual Studio is quite an exception as of 2017, its free version is good enough for actual work.

It is damn easy to make a good-looking Delphi (and/or Lazarus) application. Try that with your WinAPI!
Outside the Delphi world, RAD has become a lost art by now. Qt's "Qt Creator" is a nice try though.
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pj
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Re: Symmetry

Post by pj »

Just what does this have about the OP?

Guys,
GET A ROOM!
Tuxman
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Re: Symmetry

Post by Tuxman »

I already have several rooms and they are nicely filled with computers, vinyl LPs, CDs, whisky and lost hopes. :)
The OP was about symmetry though, and still nobody mentioned Archimedes and/or Euclid. Times are a-changin'.
Last edited by Tuxman on 2017 Jun 05, 17:55, edited 1 time in total.
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Kilmatead
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Re: Symmetry

Post by Kilmatead »

pj wrote:Just what does this have [to do with] the OP?
Well, you posited your ideas, Nikos dismissed them as more or less "not a good idea", and you didn't fight back. I argued in your case, Nikos became sullen, grumpy, non-committal, and tried to change the topic, which is always a sure sign that his strategy of using Knights against Rooks is doomed to failure.

The rest is a remarkably on-topic (for us) discussion about UI design with some art history thrown in to keep the liberal kids happy. So it actually has quite a bit to do with the spirit of the OP, if not the letter.

Still want to doggedly stick to the OP? Then fight back and show Nikos what your Bishops are good for. You made a good start by pointing out an admittedly small, yet still legit display bug, and that kind of easy-fix always puts him in a good mood, and susceptible to further charms, but you have to follow up while the iron is hot, as Nikos has a notoriously short attention span during wind-surfing season, asymmetrical grump that he is.

:shrug:
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Re: Symmetry

Post by pj »

Kilmatead wrote: 2017 Jun 05, 17:37
pj wrote:Just what does this have [to do with] the OP?
Well, you posited your ideas, Nikos dismissed them as more or less "not a good idea", and you didn't fight back. I argued in your case, Nikos became sullen, grumpy, non-committal, and tried to change the topic, which is always a sure sign that his strategy of using Knights against Rooks is doomed to failure.

The rest is a remarkably on-topic (for us) discussion about UI design with some art history thrown in to keep the liberal kids happy. So it actually has quite a bit to do with the spirit of the OP, if not the letter.

Still want to doggedly stick to the OP? Then fight back and show Nikos what your Bishops are good for. You made a good start by pointing out an admittedly small, yet still legit display bug, and that kind of easy-fix always puts him in a good mood, and susceptible to further charms, but you have to follow up while the iron is hot, as Nikos has a notoriously short attention span during wind-surfing season, asymmetrical grump that he is.

:shrug:
:lol: :lol: :lol:

So funny! Good one K!

So, a year and a half on, how well are we doing getting this feature implemented? But, I guess why bother since, according to Enternal, XYplorer already has it :twisted: I mean after all, it's just something that Nikos said is handled by Edit verbs (ignoring the many examples where this would be a real plum of a feature for a portable-only x2), but, instead we can work with paths that have 2^16 characters, which, you know, we run into *ALL* the time.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Besides, TTE is a very elegant implementation. I'd hate to see what THAT Organize dialog would look like in "native" x2. :roll:

Also, since I've worked with Menu++ to get my structured bookmarks, I've stopped looking for a solution there, either. So I'm not holding my breath about any improvements along the lines of symmetry. I mean, after seeing the recent post about how a right-click on an obscure part of the tab bar (IF you can avoid the "X") brings up folder groups, why would we ever ask for a new feeture in x2. It's got simply "everything".

<sigh>

---------------------------

P.S. - and if history is any predictor of the future, I've just wasted even more time on this topic...
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nikos
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Re: Symmetry

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pj
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Re: Symmetry

Post by pj »

<sigh> Thanks for proving my last statement
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nikos
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Re: Symmetry

Post by nikos »

everybody (especially the louder people) have their own idea about "what's best to do this or that"
now imagine what would have happened if I listened to all these people!?
the only viable solution is to offer the functionality in one way that at least to me seems reasonable, and tell people how to find it
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Re: Symmetry

Post by pj »

Nikos,

I have to admire ( :roll: ) your consistency in responding to reports of "issues", "improvements", "enhancements", what have you. It's your program, your time and effort so you have to decide your priorities. Over the 11+ years I've used x2, that one characteristic has been steady as a beam of light.

However, one last suggestion, since you have consistently ignored or cast aspersions on those reports, and sometimes even the people offering them, you really should save everyone a lot of time and put a sticky forum post at the top of the list that says something to the effect of:

"I know users of this program may find blemishes, errors or other things they wish to bring to my attention in the mistaken impression that I'll do something to correct said issue. In truth, I really don't give a ..."

And that's all I'll say.
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