Suggestion: Remove File-->Exit from scrap container...

danielrod · Post by **danielrod** » 2004 Sep 23, 22:35

Would it be possible to remove the Exit menu item from the scrap container's File menu?

We've all experienced the frustration...you attempt to close your scrap container by speedily flying through keyboard combinations: Alt+F, Up Arrow, <ENTER>. Then, ouch. What you wanted to happen was for the scrap container to close, not the entire application!

Now, I have all but trained myself to not rely on the arrow keys, but instead to use: Alt+F --> C to close my scrap container, while maintaining xplorer2 open. However, there are those times when impusively, I hit Up Arrow instead of C (a natural key combination in many popular applications), and in less than a fraction of a swift breath, it's all gone. The entire app has closed, along with all other containers and instances of xplorer I may have had opened.

In weighing the validity of my request, I would pose this question: How many people truly "intend" to close the application (and all its instances) by going into a scrap container to hit File-->Exit?? My own response would be: Not sure, but I can certainly (and painfully) vouch for those who did NOT.

Thanks!

Daniel

P.S. I faced an embarassing moment while demonstrating to a colegue the wonders of this fantastic, ergonomic-like little app. There I was flying through screens at an impressive clip, smoothly moving files from here to there, when suddenly, before our eyes, the entire thing instantly folded on itself! Call it an I/O (Idiot Operator) error if you like, but it happened. Bitten again by Up Arrow --> <ENTER> from within scrap container.

fgagnon · Post by **fgagnon** » 2004 Sep 24, 01:16

I've done similar to myself with fewer keystrokes:
just Alt+X

I have learned to go slower; but I would like to assign Alt+C to close current window (esp. for scrappane).
& then I would reassign the copy names shortcut to Alt+N
(I don't find Alt+C natural for copy names, anyway; but I never used Norton Commander, where I suspect that combo came from.)

JRz · Post by **JRz** » 2004 Sep 24, 14:17

fgagnon wrote:[...]I have learned to go slower; but I would like to assign Alt+C to close current window (esp. for scrappane).
& then I would reassign the copy names shortcut to Alt+N
(I don't find Alt+C natural for copy names, anyway; but I never used Norton Commander, where I suspect that combo came from.)

I think Alt+C is simply chosen because of its nephew, Ctrl+C for simple copy to clipboard. So when you look at it from that angle, it is quite natural to use Alt+C for copy names

longfellow · Post by **longfellow** » 2004 Sep 24, 15:10

I've been bitten by this many times, too... It would be great if this can be addressed in a future update. I'd like to be able to ESC out of the scrap pane (the same as one ESC's out of editor2).

JRz · Post by **JRz** » 2004 Sep 24, 18:38

Guys, why not simply use Alt+F4 to close the scrap container? Simple and effective and... it doesn't close X²

devic · Post by **devic** » 2004 Sep 25, 01:59

I'd like to be able to ESC out of the scrap pane TOO!
I asked it here: http://forum.zabkat.com/viewtopic.php?t=1968
We need just Registry Tweaks

Guys, why not simply use Alt+F4 to close the scrap container? Simple and effective and... it doesn't close X²

JRz, simple and effective is with ESC

because it's one key, and I can push it with one finger (with any finger), without focusing my attention on keyboard.

JRz · Post by **JRz** » 2004 Sep 25, 08:16

devic wrote:I'd like to be able to ESC out of the scrap pane TOO!
I asked it here: http://forum.zabkat.com/viewtopic.php?t=1968
We need just Registry Tweaks

Guys, why not simply use Alt+F4 to close the scrap container? Simple and effective and... it doesn't close X²
JRz, simple and effective is with ESC
because it's one key, and I can push it with one finger (with any finger), without focusing my attention on keyboard.

Yes, I agree. But my reply was intended for those who fumble around with the file menu (way too many keystrokes for my liking). So until Esc is adopted, why not use Alt+F4? That was the point.

But I do agree 'Esc'aping out of a scrap is more convenient. Though you'll have to consider the fact that scraps may be of a more permanent nature. In those cases you want to be warned about contents of the scrap pane being changed so you have the opportunity to save it before really exiting.

fgagnon · Post by **fgagnon** » 2004 Sep 25, 10:29

Ah, but don't forget that scrap containers are used to accumulate search results; and ESC is currently used to abort a search. That would have to change if ESC were assigned to close the active scrappane.

devic · Post by **devic** » 2004 Sep 25, 11:06

But I do agree 'Esc'aping out of a scrap is more convenient. Though you'll have to consider the fact that scraps may be of a more permanent nature. In those cases you want to be warned about contents of the scrap pane being changed so you have the opportunity to save it before really exiting.

JRz,
my motto is: I don't want to click/push more then I need. If I get confirmbox with "Are you sure ..." then for me 'Esc'aping doesn't have a sense.

I belive Nikos did right, for all people, by default, must be as is now. But for extreme people, like me, would be nice to have a possibility to change settings to "extremal". Because for us better (one time per day/month/year) start search again, then 100 times per day answer the question "Are you sure ...".

and ESC is currently used to abort a search

fgagnon, no problem:

If xplorer2 is seaching Then
ESC=abort a search
Else
ESC=exit scrap pane
End If

Registry Tweaks:
scrap_exit_with_ESC=yes/no
scrap_no_confirm=yes/no
I belive this way is good for everyone. If I need this, I will change my settings, else will be by default.

fgagnon · Post by **fgagnon** » 2004 Sep 25, 14:25

I can deal with that

longfellow · Post by **longfellow** » 2004 Sep 25, 20:39

JRz wrote:Guys, why not simply use Alt+F4 to close the scrap container? Simple and effective and... it doesn't close X²

I guess it's sort of a mindset...

ALT+F4 always seems very final to me, as if one is ending the process once and for all. After all, if you ALT+F4 on the desktop, you get the Shut Down dialog! So, when I'm ALT-F4'ing out of a scrap pane, I always have the sense that I'm terminating the program --- even though I know I'm not.

As the scrap panes are a child process of x2 main, it seems more natural (to me, anyway) to ESCape out of them.

devic wrote:If xplorer2 is seaching Then
ESC=abort a search
Else
ESC=exit scrap pane
End If

Registry Tweaks:
scrap_exit_with_ESC=yes/no
scrap_no_confirm=yes/no
I belive this way is good for everyone. If I need this, I will change my settings, else will be by default.

This would be perfect.

danielrod · Post by **danielrod** » 2004 Sep 28, 04:13

Guys, why not simply use Alt+F4 to close the scrap container? Simple and effective and... it doesn't close X²

The "simple and effective" depends on what type of keyboard you use. Standard keyboards I've noticed have a divider between the F4 and F5 key, so your fingers can quickly feel their way to the F4 key w/out looking at the keyboard (similar to how your fingers can find the F and J keys using the little bumps as a guide). On such keyboards, I admit you can very comfortably and easily hit Alt+F4.

HOWEVER, if you use an ergonomic keyboard (as I have had to do at my new job), the split occurs between the F5 and F6 key, which means it's no longer easy to quickly feel your way to the F4 key. Not to mention that on these keyboards the keys are smaller, making them harder to hit on the first try. Laptop users *might* also relate somewhat. The location of the function key you want may not be as obvious without stopping to look for it.

Also note that although the key combination Alt+F, Up Arrow, <enter> involves more keys than Alt+F4, the close proximity of the former (and their position on the keyboard) makes them quite speedy to execute.

As for going slower, I think this goes against the spirit of xplorer2. You can always tell people to be more careful, but my point here is that the software has a particular design that, in this case, appears to hinder more than help.

This goes back to: the number of people that expect/utilize/value the Exit menu item from within the scrap container VS the number of people that find it counterproductive (and wreckless??--remember, this closes without warning EVERY instance of xplorer2, not just the calling window).

If the latter outweighs the former, why have it?

Thanks to the team for your consideration on this.

Daniel

JRz · Post by **JRz** » 2004 Sep 28, 07:10

danielrod wrote:[...]As for going slower, I think this goes against the spirit of xplorer2. You can always tell people to be more careful, but my point here is that the software has a particular design that, in this case, appears to hinder more than help.

This goes back to: the number of people that expect/utilize/value the Exit menu item from within the scrap container VS the number of people that find it counterproductive (and wreckless??--remember, this closes without warning EVERY instance of xplorer2, not just the calling window).

If the latter outweighs the former, why have it?
[...]

Let me start by saying that I agree fully with the above. I'm using the scrap containers mostly for search results (as most people will do I guess). In this context 'Escaping' out of a scrap container when you're done with it seems very logical and practical.

But you can use scrap containers also in a more permanent way, by saving them and reusing them (including contents of course). In this context Escaping out of it might be desastrous to your carefully selected contents (which you just have been doing for an hour (!)), because when you don't get reminded to save it, its contents will be lost and you have to invest another hour to recreate the scrap container including what was in it.

That does justify some caution in my view to simply adopt a ruthless escape out of any scrap container (and how can you tell if it is one to be discarded without a blink or one which is worth saving?).
This also disqualifies the milliseconds gained by being able to use Escape in stead of some more keystrokes, because you lose a lot of time recreating your carefully selected contents of the container you just inadvertently put in the trashcan.

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of lessening keystrokes (I'm the same department as narayan

), but you have to look at the whole picture. We'll see what Nikos (and narayan) have to say about this.

danielrod wrote:[...]HOWEVER, if you use an ergonomic keyboard (as I have had to do at my new job), the split occurs between the F5 and F6 key, which means it's no longer easy to quickly feel your way to the F4 key. Not to mention that on these keyboards the keys are smaller, making them harder to hit on the first try.[...]

To keep the discussion light: An ergonomic keyboard where you cannot easily find keys and where the keys are too small to be able to hit the first time

??

I'd rather have a non-ergonomic keyboard

narayan · Post by **narayan** » 2004 Sep 28, 09:21

We have to follow conventions followed by all windows programs in general. For example, CTRL+C and CTRL+V couldn't be something else! So in that sense I agree with longfellow that ALT+F4 seems to be for termination of the whole group; not just a thread. But then can ALT+F4 be re-assigned to something else? If not, we are losing a key-combination unnecessarily!

Secondly, whiule considering key-assignment, we have to take the long-term view:
* Many more features are yet to come, and we don't want to run out of logical combinations by allocating all available combinations indiscriminately.
* Some of the functions are related to each other. The CTRL, ALT and SHFT keys are used with some other key(s) as a set. So we can't afford to impulsively assign just one combination out of the set and spoil the set.

Re-assigning a combination later is very awkward.

I too use the scrap panes mostly in the permanent mode (saved, and reloaded), so if just one more stroke of ESC closes an existing scraps, it would mean a huge amount of labor lost! (of course, the user could tweak the registry to activate the "always prompt user before closing" option. But then that dialog should not be ESCapable!!)

There was a mention of a conditional ESC that stops an ongoing search/flattening; and if there is no ongoing activity then closes the Scraps. I consider that a dangerous feature, because a user may use it to stop a search, and end up closing scraps instead! The reason: the user may press one ESC too many:
** Sometimes, the application does not respond immediately, and then the user presses ESC multiple times.
** At other times, you rest your finger onthat key just a fraction of a second too long, and you end up losing the scraps!

That said, how about CTRL+ESC? This combination is conventionally not used for anything else, is related to ESC and is eminently reachable with closed eyes (can't say about those "ergonomic" keyboards, though.)

Or, have ALT+X for quitting the current window and ALT+SHFT+X to quit x2 lock-stock and barrel. Again the same arguments apply.

In fact, I am an antikeyboard junkie: I would like to highlight multiple lines in the CTRL+W window (allow user to select continuous rows, just like folder panes and scrap panes) and close them all with a single keystroke. Why stop at closing just one window at a time?

BTW I think closing a scraps does not warrant a high-speed operation like ESC. That is better reserved for escaping some ongoing operation.

How many times do we need to close a scrap pane at breakneck speeds? Since a scrap pane can be reused, why close it at all? Close it just once at the end of the session. At that point of time, we don't need to close scraps rapidly.

fgagnon · Post by **fgagnon** » 2004 Sep 28, 11:02

narayan wrote:Or, have ALT+X for quitting the current window and ALT+SHFT+X to quit x2 lock-stock and barrel. Again the same arguments apply.