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Ian
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Post by Ian » 2008 May 03, 11:45

pj wrote:...logically I never could understand the "something from nothing" argument.
True, something not logic is difficult to be accepted by today's people in modern countries. I guess, not in poor and religious countries where many still believe a cocktail manuscript is from God and a pervert guy is their prophet.

I would like to think it like this:
The existence (universe) is expanding in time, so it's logical to think that there should be one place and time that started it all. And before that time, there should be no existence that we know now. So I think, it is illogical to think that existence happened from nothing, someone or something should started it, action and reaction.

Maybe heavens and all are on different dimensions, 5 Dimensions, or 12 if you are on to string theory, so we cannot possibly detect them.. until our soul abandon our bodily physical form (our current dimensions).

Maybe human brain is just our container in current dimension, on other dimension we do not need this physical form that required us to eat, drink, etc.

On the other side, God (big bang doer) could be just an alien making an experiment to create a new form of dimension, existence, or whatever.. and we just happened to be on one of it.

If only someone from the dead could tell us more.
There are some people in near death experiences (NDE) that said their soul came out of body and they could see and identify the people from outside the room after. And from Atheist became Theist as they said they saw God or Jesus. However, on NDE, people are still using some of the brain parts, so it could be just an imaginary or illusion from the brain. Where people are afraid they tend to find protection, so in this case against death they choose God.. it could be a possibility. But what about they could identify people outside their operating room?
I would like to hear NDE from someone that have not heard about God before.

The conclusion is, we don't know yet.
Atheist cannot give solid prove or solid scientific evidence that God does not exist. And neither do Theist, otherwise everyone will be either Atheist or Theist. Because, those are just theories based from small evidence that against something, not the truth or fact. "Pluto is a planet" was once considered as a fact. And that's why it's called faith, something from and for ourself. Until solid evidence is founded, discussion about creation VS evolution would go nowhere. Maybe you could convince some, but some think that God choses us, not we chose God.
Que Sera, Sera?

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nikos
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Post by nikos » 2008 May 04, 09:04

involving god or aliens as the initiator of big bang or what have you doesn't solve anything, because then it begs the question who made the maker? Infinite recursion, stack overflow, big crash :)

the most intuitive explanation is to have universe existing forever

Ian
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Post by Ian » 2008 May 04, 12:21

nikos wrote:involving god or aliens as the initiator of big bang or what have you doesn't solve anything, because then it begs the question who made the maker? Infinite recursion, stack overflow, big crash :)
True, I was just trying to say that there are many.. many possibilities. Therefore, until we could find a solid scientific evidence, any conversation regarding aliens or God exist or not would be futile for someone that has already made his or her mind about God.
nikos wrote: the most intuitive explanation is to have universe existing forever
So, it means the theory of expanding universe has to be wrong. More regarding the expanding universe could be read here:
http://cas.sdss.org/dr6/en/astro/universe/universe.asp
Maybe in the future, bigbang will be debunked. The universe is expanding and shrinking, not just expanding. And now scientist just happened to witness it's being expanding. Who knows?

For me and from the info that I consume, my intuitive explanation is to have an existing forever being that completely different in dimension, maybe not affected by time and space at all. It created the time and space and its laws that we based on our logic in. I guess, it makes sense if it is difficult to grasp something that beyond our dimension, because our logic are based on this dimension.

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