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ZoNi
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Post by ZoNi » 2008 Apr 30, 14:24

fgagnon wrote:FWIW, the translation to English I hear from a visitor returning from Moldova is as follows:
Greeting: "Christ has risen!"  
Response: "Indeed (he) has risen!"
:) My English is not that good to see why this translation is better than "mine", but I have to trust you (since you're from the USA) ;)

Btw, I'm 100% atheist :)

Btw2, I think that most of the pepole in Moldova speak Romanian, and just small number speak Russian and other Slavic language... However, I guess almost all understand more than enough Russian ;)

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VERY OT WARNING

Post by pj » 2008 Apr 30, 17:06

Brig wrote: John Dewey was a pretty good thinker.
Your correct -- John was the signer of the Humanist Manifesto, not Melville.  My mistake.  

I thought the new PC term was "brights" instead of "freethinkers".  Ahhh, can't keep up with the times anymore.  

Although I'm always curious to know what "brights" or "freethinkers" think about the universe before the Big Bang.  I don't have any clue, myself, but logically I never could understand the "something from nothing" argument.  Must be the onset of an advanced case of premature senility. <sigh> :)
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Re: VERY OT WARNING

Post by Brig » 2008 Apr 30, 18:01

pj wrote:. . . the universe before the Big Bang. I don't have any clue, myself, but logically I never could understand the "something from nothing" argument.
I know, that's a sticky one. It's almost impossible to conceive of nothingness--emptiness, yes, or bounded empty space, but nothingness is barely imaginable. Like the infinite. The idea of the persistence of matter suggests that perhaps what goes on is an infinite cycle of bang-expansion-collapse-bang. From what I gather, though, cosmologists aren't wild about that idea.

I think the important point is this: not knowing now is okay. Striving to know is the key. If history is a guide, then an answer to this question is both possible (think of what was inconceivable in past ages) and forthcoming. There is no reason to give up and say, well, it's so complicated it must be "God"; there is no reason to throw up our hands and reach for the most comforting and far-fetched creation myth. That's an unwarranted abdication of reason.

[I don't want to reserve the last word for myself, but I wouldn't want this topic to wear out its welcome. It's so very OT, and I feel I may have extended it too many times. If so, my apologies.]

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Post by nikos » 2008 Apr 30, 18:44

the easy solution for "something out of nothing" is to throw away the big bang theory altogether. It isn't the first time that the "scientists" of the mainstream get it wrong, think of the flat earth and other such theories

i like this thread :)

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Post by wasker » 2008 Apr 30, 19:00

ZoNi wrote:Btw2, I think that most of the pepole in Moldova speak Romanian, and just small number speak Russian and other Slavic language...
Actually, I believe the situation is quite opposite. Moldova has huge ex-USSR legacy, russian language as a primary is a part of it.
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Post by ZoNi » 2008 Apr 30, 19:24

wasker wrote:Actually, I believe the situation is quite opposite. Moldova has huge ex-USSR legacy, russian language as a primary is a part of it.
The official state language is Moldovan, identical in its literary form to Romanian. Russian is also widely spoken and is the native language for 11% of the population.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moldova

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Re: VERY OT WARNING

Post by pj » 2008 May 01, 12:27

Brig wrote:...the important point is this: not knowing now is okay.
This is an excellent statement, and one I wish more people would take to heart, whatever their beliefs.  
nikos wrote:the easy solution for "something out of nothing" is to throw away the big bang theory altogether
There's a lot of scientists (and non-scientists) that would agree.  The problem as I understand it is Big-Bang answers too darn many of those sticky questions the scientists insist on asking.  Darn those scientists! :lol:

Good discussion from a very benign and friendly beginning!  Maybe this topic could be moved over to the "General" forums -- as long as everyone agreed to keep it civil!!!!  I enjoy seeing views and learning from those who's ideas are not commonly held among people I've been know to associate with ("Evangelicals, Protestants and Catholics! Oh my!" :lol: ).  

I hope everyone else has benefitted as much as I have from the sharing of ideas. 8)
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Post by fgagnon » 2008 May 01, 14:14

Okay, as requested, I have moved the topic here, to the General: Talk about anything forum.

... But mostly because it doesn't "fit" analytically where it started in the x2 Pro forum.  Yet, even there, although an organisationally obvious misfit, it did not feel so out of place, as frequent posters spuriously reveal bits of our humanity ... whether as courtesies, or as humor, or philosophy (usually of things).  Some would say this is "as moved by the spirit", others "... by our humanity", or even "the devil made me do it!" --- take your pick. :hehe:  :twisted:

[call me a non-theist wonderer]

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Post by wasker » 2008 May 01, 14:36

ZoNi wrote:
wasker wrote:Actually, I believe the situation is quite opposite. Moldova has huge ex-USSR legacy, russian language as a primary is a part of it.
The official state language is Moldovan, identical in its literary form to Romanian. Russian is also widely spoken and is the native language for 11% of the population.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moldova
Actually, I don't need to visit Wikipedia to learn about the language situation in ex-USSR countries: I'm from Ukraine. While official language is Ukrainian, the Russian is understood by everybody and depending on the part of the country, it will be more or less spoken. Moldova is in the same boat.

JFYI.
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Post by nikos » 2008 May 01, 18:14

my girlfriend is slovak and she speaks ukrainian a bit :)

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Post by wasker » 2008 May 01, 20:29

No surprises, 'cause countries are neighbors.

PS.
How fun is that -- Slovak girl and Greek guy get together in UK. :)
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Post by ZoNi » 2008 May 01, 23:57

wasker wrote:
ZoNi wrote:Moldova is in the same boat.
I know, that is why I have said: "However, I guess almost all understand more than enough Russian" ;)

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Post by Brig » 2008 May 02, 15:08

Nikos:

You began by asking about the behaviorist or materialist understanding of consciousness. Well, I just read an interesting and relatively short posting on this at a site I like called Daylight Atheism. The title of the piece is "Dawn of the Dead: Are Zombies Possible?" (http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/05/ ... sible.html). The writer points out that "some prominent philosophers claim that zombies are a conclusive disproof of any strictly naturalistic theory of how the mind functions." He asks, "What makes us different from the robot [or zombie]? The answer, they say, is that there must be a supernatural component to the mind, in other words, a soul." He goes on to show what's wrong with that argument.

Thought you (and others) might find it interesting.

Enjoy,
Brig

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Post by nikos » 2008 May 02, 17:14

or what is it like being a bat? :)

the only snag with these theories is what happens to little things like morality, free will, life after death etc. Better to live a lie and hope for kingdom come?

here's another interesting site i found recently http://www.edge.org/

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Post by Brig » 2008 May 02, 17:58

nikos wrote:. . . the only snag with these theories is what happens to little things like morality,
Dawkins, in "The God Delusion," has a very nice evolutionary explanation for morality and ethics. In essence it's the idea that individuals and groups that display such characteristics survive better, last longer, than ones that display high degrees of selfishness, lack altruism.
nikos wrote:. . . free will,
It seems to me that there is no need to establish free will in theory--it seems obvious, our natural state. Theists have trouble dealing with it, not atheists.
nikos wrote:. . . life after death etc.
Is there any reason to believe that such a thing is the case? Life after death is like unicorns: I can't prove to you that they don't exist, but there is simply no good reason to believe that they do. There are perfectly good reasons why people want to believe in them--it would be nice if they existed, they'd be fun to watch, just as it would be very comforting to know that death isn't final. But that's a different issue.
nikos wrote:Better to live a lie and hope for kingdom come?
Pascal's wager. It isn't a serious argument. Wouldn't an omnipotent and omniscient God be able to see through such disingenuousness?
nikos wrote:here's another interesting site i found recently http://www.edge.org/
Thanks. I will have a look.

Enjoy your weekend,
Brig

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