War! Something to think about.

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Sal
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War! Something to think about.

Post by Sal » 2003 Feb 14, 02:54

I got this in an email. :wink:

After the 1993 World Trade Center bombing, which killed six and injured 1,000; President Clinton promised that those responsible would be hunted down and punished.

After the 1995 bombing in Saudi Arabia, which killed five U.S. military personnel; Clinton promised that those responsible would be hunted down and punished.

After the 1996 Khobar Towers bombing in Saudi Arabia, which killed 19 and injured 200 U.S. military personnel; Clinton promised that those responsible would be hunted down and punished.

After the 1998 bombing of U.S. embassies in Africa, which killed 224 and injured 5,000; Clinton promised that those responsible! would be hunted down and punished.

After the 2000 bombing of the USS Cole, which killed 17 and injured 39 U.S. sailors; Clinton promised that those responsible would be hunted down and punished.

Maybe if Clinton had kept his promise, an estimated 3,000 people in New York and Washington, D.C. that are now dead would be alive today.

And, now that Bush is taking action to bring these people to justice, we have opponents charging him with being a war monger...

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Post by Sal » 2003 Feb 14, 03:08

Then I got this...

Image
A Great photo of an Air Force training squadron flying in a never-done-before
"USA" formation over the control tower "Taj Mahal" (HQ building)
of Randolph Air Force Base in San Antonio, Texas.
Pray for all our young men and women serving our country and going into danger
that we might preserve our Freedom. And pray for wisdom for our leaders.

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Post by Luvzfufu » 2003 Feb 14, 16:52

hiya Sal, I enjoyed reading those,, It seems war touches us all in some way . My Best friends husband was just sent over there. and It has really been hard for them..
One who can feel no pain....
can never feel Love.

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Post by Len1 » 2003 Mar 13, 05:04

We need to get on with this,if its going to be a war.I don't believe what I'm seeing on the tv. I watch Fox News and it seems that all is going backwards insted of advancing to Bagdad,we are stuck in a rut, trying to please all these others who don't give a damm if we exest or not.The way I see it is all this time lost ,just puts our troops in harms way that much more.I wish I could be with them.

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Post by nikos » 2003 Mar 13, 08:37

there's something else to think about coming from a war opposing party

think of the whole world as a single country (say USA)
one state in this country (Iraq) has a neighbourhood with dodgy characters
do you solve this problem by bombing the whole state?

I remember the LA black riots back in the early 90's
would you consider bombing them into submission or use alternative means? Wouldn't you have made a bad situation even more explosive?

Think of the world as a single country. This is no way to treat fellow "citizens"

As a person outside US, I can't understand why you folks think that we over here "don't give a damm if [you] exest or not". Everybody in the world acknowledges US as the sole remaining superpower. But power comes with responsibility. You got us well spooked over here! :)

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Post by Sal » 2003 Mar 13, 16:58

Hi Len1 and welcome to the board.

A military strategy is to use diplomacy but prepare for war. The extra time only make us better prepared and ultimately it is safer for our troops. I think we are going to see results soon.

Nikos, the analogy that you used is not a good one. I respect you position but I strongly disagree. :)

If Saddam were capable of destroying a country, he would do it. The US could easily destroy Iraq if it wanted to but the US does not destroy counties. Instead, We the people of the United States of America spend a tremendous amount of our money to develop weapons and fight wars that minimize damage to people. We also pay a price not just in dollars but also with American lives for the risk that we take by not destroying a country. Iraq was not destroyed in 1991 and Afghanistan was not destroyed either.

Unfortunately, the US always has to take the initiative while the cowards sit back, criticize us and then reap the benefits at our expense.

France is disgusting. They should know better after having been liberated by us. Germany should know better having produced Hitler the monstrous murderer. Saddam is just a little Hitler that must be put out of business.

If the US and British troops were not in Iraq, there would not be any inspectors in Iraq.

If the US brought back the troops Saddam would, kick everyone out and start up the nonsense again. We cannot keep going back and forth with the dictator. He lost the war in 1991 so he has had plenty of time to change his ways.

Perhaps Saddam will comply without a war but if that happens, it is only because American and British troops were there to make it happen.

One of the reasons our country is so great and powerful is because we are Americans. What is an American? I am an American and I was born in Italy. The Americans are Polish, Irish, Germans, Italians, French, Iranians, Africans, Jews, Indians, British and any other nationally that you can think of including the women of all nationalities.

Americans are the people of the world. However, we are not trapped within the boundaries of our national origins. Our elected and appointed representatives are people with origins from all over the world. That only happens in America. In America, people of all national origins are free to make their own decisions and collectively, We the People, control America. We the People fight for freedom throughout the world. Only freedom can bring peace and to have freedom you must be willing to fight for it.

Pray for peace. Pray for our troops that are made up from all national origins and God Bless America.

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Post by Len1 » 2003 Mar 14, 01:38

Opposing the war is your right.Afterall, it was Jane Fondas right too.People can oppose a war when they think it is unjust. BUT if you can't see that this maybe Iraq war is just ,then you need thicker glasses.Sal, all that justifacation is OK but we need to get this on. I think Iraq is up to something and this could very well be a trap.Its time to quit talking,tell the UN to stick it,The big mouth Frenchmen can go hide in the corner, the Russins can talk bigand carry a very small stik and the China croud can hope their cousins don't blow their assas up befor the we can and will stop them. But now its time to do what we should have done last Nov. I know that Saddam could have been taken out a long time ago by a single sniper. It could have been done from as far away as 3,000 yds. One shot one kill.They wouldn't have even heard the shot.But we have to clear every move with someone so that never got done.Now we need 300,000 troops and a UN that is full of our nohelp allies just to hurry up and wait.

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Post by nikos » 2003 Mar 14, 09:22

well, we obviously aren't getting anywhere, are we? :)

just a final note to get the facts right;
it's not just the french/germans that are opposing this
the british people are overwhelmingly against too (over 80%)
the only spot where war is favoured is in the british parliament
many people expect that Blair will lose his job by holding on the war stance against the will of the electorate

i'm not sure about the other "great ally" (Spain)

however you and i know that US already made a decision and there's no stopping you!

but i am going to remain a hippy/tree-hugger and stay opposed to war :)
Hopefully one day the world is going to realize that wars are uncivilized remnants of a primitive era when you could beat up your neighbour and steal his wife. One day...

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Post by Len1 » 2003 Mar 14, 13:56

We aren't getting anywhere? Where are we suposed to be? Do you have a Bongo drum too? I saw the socalled human shields on the tube and they have Bongo Drums.Trying to look like the hippies of the 60-70s. The trouble with some, and I might say many, of these actavists is they get flustrated when they know they can't stop a war. Then they start on the troops.They call them names and degrade them.This I can't stand.I think they should be clubed within an inch of their life right there in te street. As for Blair, well he will end up in the history books as one of the greatest people you Brits have ever had.Now as for the USA.Think about it. Also think about all the people that didn't want to go to war with Germany back in the thirties and forties.I guess they were right too. Where would half the world be today if the USA didn't take their part and defend them with our blood.Look back at how you brits got your planes,ships and amo befor the US got into WW2.They were sneeked over to you. The tree huggers in this country didn't want us to get into any war helping you. Soooo,What happens when Saddam does slip some unknown substance into your back yard. Your going to expect the USA to help you out.Right.

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Post by susie » 2003 Mar 15, 00:22

Hi Everyone, I have to say that I am still undecided about whether we are doing the right thing or not. I wish I could be as sure of myself either way as you guys are. I honestly have to say that President Bush and Colin Powell have not convinced me that there is enough reason to go to war to get Saddam out of power without the rest of the world agreeing to it. The information I have seen does not strike me as especially threatening. Especially, since we have a whole world watching Saddam and all his moves. He would only have time to make one wrong move before someone jumps on him. I agree that he is a madman and has total disregard for human life, but they are making him out to be alot more powerful than I think he really is. What also bothers me is that there seems to be an inconsistancy with what is happening in North Korea. Bush doesn't seem to be concerned about that at all and it seems to me it should be getting the same focus. Plus, it also bothers me that on a daily basis, I read about people being laid off from their jobs and I don't really feel Bush is emphasizing as much concern about the economy as he seems to be about ousting Saddam. At this point though I feel that if Bush does back down, the same countries that feel that we are being too aggressive will probably call us cowards. For me to decide if what we are doing is right or wrong I guess I would have to know the stuff that they aren't telling us and that's never going to happen. Oh well, I thought I'd put my 2 cents worth in. :D
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Post by Sal » 2003 Mar 15, 02:53

Hmm... The last time I hugged at tree it was because I was cutting it down. :wink:

It is not just Bush. At last count 71% of the Americans favored war with Iraq and that number keeps rising. US Congress also backs Bush. Americans are fed-up with dictators and extremist. So, these characters want to fool around. Well guess want. We are at war! The president declared war on 9/11 and the people are behind him so lets get the job done.

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Post by nikos » 2003 Mar 15, 09:13

71% is high, so I'm glad we managed to find one of the elusive minority right in this forum (hi suzie! :) )

you yanks are still a bit hot under the collar from the 9/11 attacks. That is understandable but it has affected the impartiality of your judgements IMHO. So 71% of you are for war, and (say) 71% of all the rest of the civilized world are against it. Either we are all crazy over here or perhaps there's a point we are making

the point I am making is that wars (unless defensive) are always without justification. This particular war is wrong because it is preemptive. Let's bomb saddam because he may directly or indirectly attack us. Imagine if you took the same stance against former criminals; we shouldn't have courts, all first time offenders would be shot because they would "certainly reoffend". So let's wipe them out preemtpively!

To us over here it doesn't make any sense. There's no link between saddam and 9/11.

friends have many tasks and purposes. One is support when a friendly party is in danger. US have helped us euros in the past and we are grateful for that. But nobody is threatening (never mind invading) US right now, and least of all saddam. Your blood is still hot from 9/11 and you are out to form a lynch mob. True friends would try to help you see through this rather than join what basically is an illegal war. Think of all the innocent people and children that could be saved!

Not to mention that muslims have this fanatic core that is bound to kick back when provoked. Is this war really going to help fight terrorism or is it going to generate more muslim fundamentals hell-bent on strapping bombs on their bodies and killing/maming people in US & UK? Look at what happens in Israel/Palestine every day. No nerve gas or nuclear weapons required!

As friends and US allies we have the responsibility to point all these things out to you. That's what friends are for.

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Post by Sal » 2003 Mar 16, 01:30

Nikos, you are a nice person. Unfortunately, nice people are taken advantage of all the time. It is difficult for the average person to understand what goes on in the mind of a monster. Most good people want to think the best of other people. Conmen and murders play into that.

The US is far from alone. Most leaders agree that Saddam needs to be taken out they just do not have support of their people. Ask the Kuwaitis they know first hand what Saddam is. He invaded their country, raped, tortured, and murdered their people. When he lost the war, he set fire to the oil wells devastating the environment. Saddam murdered more innocent people in his own country than all the people killed in the gulf war. That is what the tree huggers are defending.

The only reason Saddam is not a major threat now is that WE surround him military. We cannot keep the armed forces there indefinitely and he knows it so he stalls for time and plays into the hand of all the suckers in the world. Unfortunately, there are many foolish people in the world. Fortunately, fools do not run the US.

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Post by Len1 » 2003 Mar 22, 13:43

Well its on.Things look rather well so far. I still worry a little about our people when they get closer to Bagdad.Maybe I shouldn't. Now that the war is on, the anti war activests should give up this time and money consuming displays they think is helping their cause.They arn't going to stop it now either. They want everything their way, as long as our young men and women in uniform keep our country free so they can have it their way. Their a different kind of people than most. A catagory you might say.Against war, no matter how just.Maybe against everything that makes sense. Posably Democrats, are involved with animal rescues of all kinds,maybe with the oppisition all the time and never thinking that this world revolves around more important things than what makes them happy.Sick people.Now what sense does it make to go to Don Rumsfields house and put on a show of stupidity. If it was me thay would get a shotgun blast of rock salt in their ass. Oh well its not me. I should spend more time praising our troops and the great job their doing. The great planing and exacuting of all phases of this war so far.Many don't even know what goes on in country befor the war srarts. The special ops, the seals, and of course the Green Berets.These make all you see on the tv possable. These people that do all this demonstrating have no idea how brave these men and women are or what they go through both in country and out. I have to say that the Brits are great alies,brave heros all. Now, I have to say that the bravest Brit is Tony Blair. look at what he did for this cause at his own expence.

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Post by RandyAndy » 2003 May 14, 17:23

Yeah that's some crazy stuff.

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