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nikos
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bank mobile apps

Post by nikos »

to have online banking access, most banks require either a special gadget or a mobile phone app to generate a security code. The latter requires a smartphone. I am not willing to give up my trysty hardly-5 year old java phone so that "it's allright when it goes up but when we are tight depositors are shareholders" bankers will run their security apps

I am trying to ask their support why the hell do they insist on a smartphone app and they don't offer something that runs on a normal PC? What's so special about a smartphone? Nobody can offer an explanation. WTF?
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Re: bank mobile apps

Post by pj »

Must be a Greek banking thing.

All the banks I deal with in the US, either for deposit accounts (checking, savings, etc.) or credit cards, have browser-based on-line banking access. For that matter, though some of the banks I deal with, e.g. Chase, offer apps, I absolutely will not provide a means to access my accounts with a mobile device due to it's higher risk of being lost or stolen, over the reasonably security of my PCs at home combined with the security of keeping the login credentials secured in a KeyPass vault.

It could be that the Greek version of Mr. Potter the banker doesn't want to provide access due to the costs and unfamiliarity with the new technology, but had some kid whip up an app for his cell phone that he thought was cool.

In reality, major Greek banks do offer online access, (Bank of Greece), so perhaps you're doing business with the wrong bank.

One final thought, based on many conversations with the SO (works in the credit card industry) on the relative levels of banking and credit fraud in the US vs. Europe, Europe is a cesspool! :yuck: The banking industry is primarily to blame for lack of infrastructure to support real-time validation of transactions, leading to a multitude of off-line device-based security like the European version of the smart credit card, and also requiring dongles for home computers to generate unbreakable confirmation / handshake codes to give the banks a warm fuzzy about the person on the other end of the line. So, in the end, blame your larcenous neighbors, friends and family (just kidding! :bigsmile: ) for their fun and games with credit cards :party: as the root cause to your quandary.

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PJ in (rainy) FL
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Re: bank mobile apps

Post by Kilmatead »

pj wrote:...in the US vs. Europe, Europe is a cesspool! The banking industry is primarily to blame for lack of infrastructure to support [...]
You'll be ever so pleased to know that the European populace are told precisely the same thing about American Banks ("I mean, verily, the yanks are 10 years behind even basic stuff like chip-&-pin"), so the misdirected blame goes both ways, with punters in the middle still scratching their heads about whether Tracker Mortgages are a good thing or not depending on how many vowels there are in a given month's name.

Speaking as someone whose credit card (and overdrawn bank account) were seized and sold off to the debtor's agencies "back in the crash" (and I've suffered the acquaintance neither one nor t'other since) I'm happily indifferent to the so-called "issues". I will say, however, that one's indifference curiously makes one more sensitive to the obviousness of the fnord's that appear in the propaganda misconstrued as "public information". :shrug:

My personal scepticism (about everything this century portends) aside, if the Americans say the Europeans are the sloppy culprits and the Europeans say the Americans haven't got a clue, it's a certainty that someone somewhere will benefit from the confusion (and, I'll wager, it won't be any of us three).

(Curiously, I'll also note from personal experience, that the Europeans are not bright enough to think of trying to seize a PayPal account when the stuffing hits the fan. If they had, they would have had me by the short and curlies. As it is, all they did was relieve me of an albatross. Silly boys. :D)
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Re: bank mobile apps

Post by nikos »

this is not a euro/dollar or greek thing. At least in europe it goes all over the place. I understand the need for "extra security", only I don't understand what's so special about a phone app that couldn't be furnished by something that runs on a PC. And the risks of losing a phone are much greater!
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Re: bank mobile apps

Post by Kilmatead »

Then they're just being cheap. The work-experience lad who volunteered to write their "app" probably has himself the Apple and Android SDK's and has never done anything for PC. You'd be surprised at what little it takes to be called a "qualified programmer" these days, if you subscribe to the governmental "dole-courses", judging by recent graduates here. The bar seems quite low.

That said, websites which track these things (Amazon, et al) are saying the vast majority of online browsers frequenting their sites is actually coming from smaller form-factors (tablets and phones) these days, so that's who gets pandered to first.

Start a petition. A lonely, echoing, smokey-skein filled petition.
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Re: bank mobile apps

Post by Tuxman »

I have two banking accounts:
  1. The usual giro account.
    Online banking can be done with a normal web browser by entering a user name and a password. There are, however, several ways to get a TAN for transactions:
    a) Photo TAN: Use your smartphone or a special photo device (which you can get from your bank) to take a photo of a one-time icon and send it to the website. Not quite convenient and/or secure IMO.
    b) Mobile TAN: You get a short number by SMS as some kind of a two-way authentication, so if anyone wants to rob you, he'll have to take your computer and your mobile phone (a Java phone would probably work too). In 2015, SMS messages obviously are a robot thing.
    c) iTAN: You get a sheet of paper with a couple of TANs which is always hidden somewhere when you need it.

    Mobile banking requires the bank's "app" and the same TANs.

    ---------------
  2. My investment account with my shares.
    Online banking requires a "mobile TAN" (and a PIN and a user name and a password and my first-born child).

    Mobile banking (through the web interface) is only possible with a paper TAN. :shock:
    WT holy F.
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nikos
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Re: bank mobile apps

Post by nikos »

investment account eh? how is your VW stock faring? :)
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Re: bank mobile apps

Post by Tuxman »

This is actually a great time to buy VW stocks. They're 1/3 cheaper than usual.
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Re: bank mobile apps

Post by pj »

Kilmatead wrote:
pj wrote:...in the US vs. Europe, Europe is a cesspool! The banking industry is primarily to blame for lack of infrastructure to support [...]
You'll be ever so pleased to know that the European populace are told precisely the same thing about American Banks ("I mean, verily, the yanks are 10 years behind even basic stuff like chip-&-pin"), so the misdirected blame goes both ways, with punters in the middle still scratching their heads about whether Tracker Mortgages are a good thing or not depending on how many vowels there are in a given month's name.
The illusion of security is so much easier, and cheaper, to create than the real thing.

The reason the smart card (chip-in-card) was implemented in Europe 10 years ago was because of the necessity of doing so. Very costly to implement, but only slightly more secure than the mag strip cards in my wallet at the moment. In fact, my mag-strip cards are far more secure because of the infrastructure behind them to provide REAL-TIME transaction scoring (fraud risk level), and REAL-TIME authorization against REAL-TIME balances.

Note the "real-time" thing above. Very important.

In Europe banking and credit system, transaction processing is batched, so there could be hours between a fraudulent transaction occurring and a financial institution, OR the account owner (more on this later), recognizing a dodgy purchase and shutting off the transaction. The US system relies on all the authorization and, where implemented, fraud risk assessment, all the way back to the financial institution or their processor happen real-time. No "local" authorizations against estimated or aged balance data.

This "feeture" of Euro-banking allowes the thieves to obtain the account info and run up thousands of (currency units) of transactions against accounts that may have no funds before anyone can detect it. The smart card made that more difficult by multiple methods:
1. The card with the chip was much harder to obtain or duplicate
2. The card's chip maintained a running account balance that would be reconciled and updated periodically.

All that made it harder, but still left the 800 lb gorilla untouched - the lack of real-time authorization all the way back the chain to the financial institution who has the final say-so that a transaction is valid and will be funded.

Getting back to the account owner in the loop, the other day the real-time processing, and the alerts I have set up on my accounts, allowed me to call my credit card company within minutes of a fraudulent on-line transaction being posted on my credit card. The card was blocked, the transaction cancelled and the merchant was alerted that the transaction was fraudulent, so nothing was shipped. However, the criminal wasted lots of time, and hopefully some real cash, pulling all my information together on that credit card to attempt the transaction. And any further attempts to use that card would be useless.

Had this happened with a Euro bank account, I might have gotten an alert the same day, most likely not. Although I have zero liability for fraudulent transactions, the bad guys would still have benefited. Which is why the criminals prefer to do "business" in Europe over the US.

------------------------------------------
PJ in (glad we're NOT going to make Joaquin's acquaintance) FL
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Re: bank mobile apps

Post by nikos »

you seem to know more on this than I do but I have a bank service that sends me an SMS whenever there's a big movement in my account, and whenever I use my debit card the notification comes in pretty much instantly. So perhaps whetever you knew is no longer the case

I remember the first time I visited the USA, a guy upon hearing I was greek, the first question he asked me was if we have electricity down there (!) -- and that didn't seem in jest. So you guys must revise your information on europe, we have electricity, inside toilets and all that ;)
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Re: bank mobile apps

Post by Kilmatead »

nikos wrote:we have electricity, inside toilets and all that ;)
Speak for yourself you lucky bastard! The 18th century I live in is not as romantic as it's made out to be! :D

Even the prisons aren't safe from it! They don't call it Octobrrrr for nothin'.

On topic though, what started out as an in-house-only service for banks, (the Real-time Gross Settlement [RTGS] system) is slowly making its way down into the private sector transaction market and is a bit of misnomer now, since the networks are already in place and not restricted to rich industrialist magnates like Nikos. Not wholly implemented across the all the high-streets just yet, but it's available for those who imagine they need it.

That being said, Nikos, Debit Cards != Credit Cards.
TARGET2 wrote:TARGET2 (Trans-European Automated Real-time Gross Settlement Express Transfer System) in 26 countries of the European Union. TARGET2 is the Real Time Gross Settlement system for the Euro currency, and is offered by the Eurosystem, which comprises the European Central Bank and the National Central Banks of those countries that have adopted the Euro currency.
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Re: bank mobile apps

Post by pj »

Kilmatead wrote:... Not wholly implemented across the all the high-streets just yet, but it's available for those who imagine they need it.

That being said, Nikos, Debit Cards != Credit Cards....
As I was saying, 10 years on with the chip cards in Europe and the RTGS is still not universal. Just reinforces what I said about transaction security. Yes Nikos, you're getting better. I know you have toilets and electricity. I enjoyed both one night in Athens airport on my way to the more civilized Crete :bigsmile:

However, as K pointed out, debit cards are different. They require direct authorization by the banks, thus the instantaneous SMS. That said, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER (did I mention NEVER) use a debit card other than for ID in the bank or in the BANK'S ATM after you're absolutely certain it's not a false front or otherwise compromised!!!!

Debit card fraud is NOT ZERO LIABILITY, and good luck convincing your bank to replace any monies lost!!!!

---------------------------------------------
PJ in (recovering from the Brad Paisley concert last night) FL
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Re: bank mobile apps

Post by Kilmatead »

pj wrote:(recovering from the Brad Paisley concert last night)
Oh dear God, you're one of those people... let me guess, you threw the first stone at poor Shania back in the day...

We have to ask ourselves: Is it wise for Nikos (a Jazz lover) to accept financial advice from one of those people? :wink:
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Re: bank mobile apps

Post by pj »

Yes, one of "those" people.

No, no stones thrown at Shania -- why on Earth would anyone diss that lovely lady?


-------------------------------------
PJ in (recovering from multiple sets of Starship today - they were performing this weekend at EPCOT. Mickey Thomas still has the vocals!) FL

Did you see a White Rabbit run by?
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Re: bank mobile apps

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