blog: whatever next for europe? [politics]

[nikos]

here's the comment area for today's blog post found at
http://zabkat.com/blog/greek-referendum.htm

[sanferno]

In my opinion, this is a political and ideological arguing between hard debt control (german theories) and more "relaxed" economic policies (represented only by greek government now).

As most people sees it here in Spain, a win of Tsipras over Merkel's postulates, could lead to a greater growing phenomena of new parties related with Syriza's ideology. Having in mind this background tide between neo-liberalism and a more socialized economy, we can understand why this issue has been over dimensioned in all of its aspects.

Stock markets, banks, big money (any way you will like to call it), doesn't want to loose their part of the stack, specially when they have been improving their benefits during the last decade because of this crisis, and by drowning the wellness of the periferic of Europe (specially the south), historically stereotyped as "less important" than the hardcore.

I don't know what result of today's referendum will be less bad for Greece but, as I spoke to you before Tsipras winning a few months ago, I wish all the best for your country because I will like to think that could end up been good for my own one.

[nikos]

jacta alea est as they say in italy. Greeks voted NO marginally, now it looks I'll have to migrate earlier than planned

[IsoBuster]

My good friend Nikos,

So many things flashed through my head when I read this earlier today, many things I probably now forget to mention and some that I shouldn't mention here, but a few thoughts:

As a general rule I think most of Europe feels for the Greeks. Honestly. That includes the Germans. PS. I'm from Belgium, as you know.
But there's also a feeling of "why do we need to pay for the Greeks all the time", we need to draw a line. And that line is here and now.

This Greek tragedy has been going on for so long now, ... much longer than what has been in the news the last few months.
Europe and the IMF have been pumping money in Greece for 5 years now, and the Greek government in term promised to implement measures to get their spending and economy healthy again.
Except for a few spending cuts not much has been implemented. There are many things the Greek government promised but simply never did. One of THE most annoying failures of the Greek government(s) has been the inability or slackness to collect taxes. And THAT is something that transcends government politics, THAT affects people in the street. Because in the north we pay our taxes (or at least a lot better than the Greeks seem to do) and we pay a lot of taxes and we feel and have felt the crisis as well, so why do we need to pay for Greece if the Greeks themselves don't seem willing to do it ? The write off of the latest Greek loan will cost every working Belgian a few thousand Euros again. Since we actually balance the books overhere, and pay/collect taxes, this means that we will be taxed again in the coming year to pay those few thousand Euros.

The fact that there is little trust in the Greek government to actually implement what they promise is ONE of the reasons why the talks the last few months didn't yield to anything.
Another reason is the people you voted in recently. Apparently, and I see that on the news in Belgium, Netherlands, Germany and the UK, there is no sensible talking with Varoufakis. I suppose there is some truth in "In a democracy, people get the government they deserve". His 'style' (let's call it that) drives everybody in the trees, so again, if that is the person you want defending your cause ...
And then there are some really tough reasons. Spain, Portugal and Italy have all been in the same boat (sort of) and they HAVE cleaned up their act (in part) and measures are starting to pay off. Giving in to Greece means that those three will want to come back on previous agreements opening the door for a lot more problems. And let's be honoust, those economies are huge compared to Greece, so that would really mean a Euro crisis and I don't want (nor can't) pay for that either.
The IMF is under pressure from Brazil, China and developing nations. Why the double standard. Why be easy on the Greeks and not us. The IMF has been under fire from those countries after the 'easy' money to Greece in the past.

It's all very much a balancing act, and then on Friday the Greeks walk out, blow up the talks (not the other way around) and announce a referendum to which the Greeks are asked to vote NO
What do you expect the ministers from other nations need to do with that ? These guys may make themselves heroes in Greece but to the rest of Europe they are branded totally untrustworthy.

And voting YES means nothing ? Because even if you vote YES, to what do you vote yes ? They never reached and agreement to vote YES to !?
And the trust in the current government is below zero. How can the rest of Europe expect this government to implement what they say they will implement ? So why give more money to have to write it off again and tax its citizens again ?
To be frank, voting NO doesn't change a hoot either. Because Europe is STILL willing to talk. I personally wouldn't be so patient.

And then I haven't even touched Geo politics and other sensitivities that are not being discussed so openly in the Media but certainly play, and probably have led to 'letting' Greece in the single currency zone in the first place.

It's a difficult situation. I really honoustly hope no *honoust* Greek loses a dime on this, but something needs to give. It's been long enough. Solidarity stretches only so far.

Just my 5 cents.
Next time we meet Beer is on me !! (not that I fear there is a problem in this area

[IsoBuster]

And I completely forgot to mention that Greece now can't devaluate its currency anymore, like you were able to do before the Euro. Which was always a great tool for Southern Europe. Devaluate when in trouble, get the rest of Europe to come vacation there (relatively cheap) and ... problem solved.

[nikos]

but if you ask the troika in the last year 2014 greece had actually sorted out much of its spending deficit (positive before loan repayments) by massive spending cuts and tax increases. So even if it isn't the law abiding country that you are used to in northern europe, it did what it was told. But the economy shrunk in the process, making it even harder to keep this going. Did you ever ask yourself, if greece goes bust who will pay you back the 320 billion owed?

[Tuxman]

As a German citizen and a fan of Ancient Athene's understanding of democracy, I don't really know which side I should share. At least my sense of irony is having one orgasm after the next when reading about missing Drachmes.

[dunno]

Two quotes from a book I'm writing titled "Proverbs and B.S.

He who believes that a group of Rich people won't 'manipulate' events to suit themselves is a fool, Humans are disposable commodities to those in power. the purpose of humans to those in power is to consume products and pay taxes.

The Financial Industry is a Corporation which is self serving and very profit orientated, The profits are Capitalized and the loses are "Socialised" by the Tax Payer.

Nikos, firstly, where is all the money that was given to Greece ?, secondly, why weren't capitol controls imposed right at the start of the initial loan talks years ago ?.

My take on this is that the Greek Elite's LOOTED Greece's coffers and have stashed it elsewhere. The outcome of the referendum is irrelevant, the Greek people are fvcked either way because the International Elite Robber Barons (the people who control things) don't give a flying fvck about you/us "the people", never have and never will.

The European voter base and especially the American voter base is continuously distracted from real issues with, gay marriage, celeb news, x factor, etc. Then when it's election time supply the below in abundance, and use the words, "Freedom, Democracy, and Great Country of ours" over and over.

Cheap beer (alcohol)
Free football/soccer
Cheap protein

[nikos]

Nikos, firstly, where is all the money that was given to Greece ?

as I said in the article the 90% of the "help" money goes straight repaying the loans. So now the guys whom we owe money, won't give us any more money to repay their money. Go figure. No wonder people in greece voted NO

[dunno]

Nikos, firstly, where is all the money that was given to Greece ?

as I said in the article the 90% of the "help" money goes straight repaying the loans. So now the guys whom we owe money, won't give us any more money to repay their money. Go figure. No wonder people in Greece voted NO

No, I mean All the money that Greece received from the EU prior to the bailout.

[nikos]

I don't know, I didn't get any of that for sure
in the usual pockets I imagine, some building works then into various big sharks mouths
also many people "learnt" that they can get subsidies without doing any work (farmers, imaginary "enterpreuners" etc)
greece is 90% responsible for the pre-2010 mess, then only 10% responsible after that

[dunno]

I don't know, I didn't get any of that for sure
in the usual pockets I imagine, some building works then into various big sharks mouths
greece is 90% responsible for the pre-2010 mess, then only 10% responsible after that

Right, now those "big sharks mouths" have to be hunted down, their stomachs gutted and the contents retrieved, but...don't hold your breath.

Have you noticed that the elites have decided to do something about corruption by going after FIFA in Switzerland ?, the most financialy morally corrupt country in the world, as if FIFA is the only corrupt organisation out there, the mind boggles at the audacity of the Elite's.

[nikos]

life's hard and then one dies, innit

[neko]

Bye Greece. Now you have to do something yourself. Pay taxes and so on. But I am sure that Greece will survive. Good luck!

[dunno]

Bye Greece. Now you have to do something yourself. Pay taxes and so on. But I am sure that Greece will survive. Good luck!

You must be an Elite, what else can one glean from the above.