blog: future so bright, i gotta wear shades

Cosmo · Post by **Cosmo** » 2009 Oct 09, 09:17

nikos wrote:new folder overwrite bit: the "overwritten" folders don't go to the recycle bin, they go to kingdome come!

I mentioned this already yesterday.

But the question is: Is this intentional. If yes, why? I don't think this is a good decision, especially as with this feature robust delete becomes a very dangerous command. The user calls robust delete, uses the last setting and forgets about the sync option and ... bang, no way back.

Post by **nikos** » 2009 Oct 09, 09:25

well with power comes risk and responsibility... at least this option is off by default

ps 150 is much larger than 64!

Cosmo · Post by **Cosmo** » 2009 Oct 09, 09:57

nikos wrote:well with power comes risk and responsibility

This view is too easy!

Why is there a recycle bin in Windows since W95?
Why has an Formula 1 car (with really much more power than a normal car) better brakes?

And responsibility does not start with the user, it starts at the design decisions. (As in F1: It is not the driver who chooses the brakes, but the team and the rule creators. People without responsibility for others are named Briatore.)

WimdeLange · Post by **WimdeLange** » 2009 Oct 09, 10:54

Cosmo wrote:
nikos wrote:well with power comes risk and responsibility
This view is too easy!

Why is there a recycle bin in Windows since W95?
Why has an Formula 1 car (with really much more power than a normal car) better brakes?

And responsibility does not start with the user, it starts at the design decisions. (As in F1: It is not the driver who chooses the brakes, but the team and the rule creators. People without responsibility for others are named Briatore.)

Be careful with this sort of reasoning: So the designers of a gun are to blame? Not me pulling the trigger? Nice to know.

Kilmatead · Post by **Kilmatead** » 2009 Oct 09, 11:00

Cosmo wrote:People without responsibility for others are named Briatore.)

Technically they're named Piquet, who only answers to himself. People who squander responsibility for others are called Briatore. Not that the metaphor belongs here. Most PC users have very little interest in deleting things with 700 horsepower. They're happy with a Volvo.

This whole feature seems a bit odd to me, but I can see what Cosmo's arguing against (or for), though as always I hate logical arguments.

When I first started using x2 I could never figure out what "Robust" meant anyway, so tended to avoid anything labelled thus. Users learn what not to touch at their own pace, moving to advanced features as they go.

Thracx · Post by **Thracx** » 2009 Oct 09, 11:43

Kilmatead wrote:...with Actions -> Change Attributes

Oh cool, I had completely forgotten about that feature, thanks Kilmatead! It almost obsoletes PropertiesPlus! Too bad it can't change 'Last Accessed', although I certainly think it's the least useful to change.

Cosmo · Post by **Cosmo** » 2009 Oct 09, 14:10

WimdeLange wrote:Not me pulling the trigger?

If you pull the trigger, than it is you.

Back to the questioned feature:
If the user activates the sync feature, it is his responsibility. But if the deleted objects are not be deletable to the bin (because it is coded in this way and there is no option) and the user does not even gets informed about that (I did find it, because I investigated during beta testing, no normal user will do this, until he wants to get something back, and than it's to late), than this clearly in the responsibility of the designer.

As I already said: Not the feature is bad, but the circumstances, how it is implemented.

Post by **nikos** » 2009 Oct 09, 15:54

in that train of thought people would be sueing me for plain file overwrites -- which aren't undoable either

Cosmo · Post by **Cosmo** » 2009 Oct 09, 17:22

If you copy anything and confirm override, this is clear. And you are correct, that in this case Windows does not save the old file in the bin (just as it does not do this, if you edit a file and save the new version).

But with the sync option there is the point, that files get lost, that are not in the source. When overriding anything you have at least the new version, but with the sync feature you loose a file, because there is no new file in the source, so that you do not have any version of this file.

Cosmo · Post by **Cosmo** » 2009 Oct 09, 19:26

Cosmo wrote:If you copy anything and confirm override, this is clear. And you are correct, that in this case Windows does not save the old file in the bin (just as it does not do this, if you edit a file and save the new version).

But with the sync option there is the point, that files get lost, that are not in the source. When overriding anything you have at least the (new; EDIT: correction:) one version, but with the sync feature you loose a file, because there is no (new; EDIT: correction:) other file in the source, so that you do not have any version of this file.

FrizzleFry · Post by **FrizzleFry** » 2009 Oct 10, 00:06

It was so good it needed to be said twice?

Cosmo · Post by **Cosmo** » 2009 Oct 10, 07:10

Not good, but important. And showing my arguments from all aspects is the only - and legitimate - way trying to convince Nikos. In the early stage there is a chance to correct that, what I consider as a design fault; I use this chance.

dunno · Post by **dunno** » 2009 Oct 10, 13:24

Cosmo wrote: Why is there a recycle bin in Windows since W95?

Cosmo, just to remind you that not everyone cares about the recycle bin, whenever I delete anything I ALWAYS use Shift-Delete, ALWAYS...

Overwrite to oblivion is a cool idea

my apologies for semi "jacking" this thread.

P.S.
All "lost" electronic data goes to Black Holes.
The rings of Saturn are comprised of lost luggage.

Thracx · Post by **Thracx** » 2009 Oct 10, 14:05

dunno wrote:...whenever I delete anything I ALWAYS use Shift-Delete, ALWAYS...

I have that prompt to delete disabled, but keep the recycling bin. If you want to do the reverse - or have both disabled - you can. In case you didn't know, you can rightClick on the Recycling Bin and select properties. There you can check a box to disable it's functionality.

I used to hate the Recycling Bin but have grown to get along with it and even use it sometimes.

Cosmo · Post by **Cosmo** » 2009 Oct 11, 07:59

There are people, who use the bin and others, who don't. But ...

dunno wrote:I delete anything I ALWAYS use Shift-Delete, ALWAYS...

I really don't understand, why you don't disable the bin in it's settings instead.

dunno wrote:Overwrite to oblivion is a cool idea

No, it is a bad and evil idea.

Those, you don't want the bin and disable it, will get their "oblivion", whatever x2 does. For those users this discussion has anyway no practical meaning.

But those, who use the bin, will find it very un-cool.

One more point:

When there was a discussion about the missing undo feature in x2 Nikos replied somewhere, that the user could use the recycle bin for getting back accidentally deleted files. I answered in that Thread, why this is not satisfying, but besides that, in this case even the "solution" of Nikos will not work. So the behavior of the discussed sync feature is against the until now valid philosophy.