x2 is missing standard cut/copy/paste shortcuts

pila · Post by **pila** » 2003 Jun 18, 22:08

All Windows application support old style shortcuts for cut/copy/paste, could you not put them into x2?

If someone is wondering what am I talking about:

copy - ctrl+insert
cut - shift+delete
paste - shift+insert

I know that most people who believe computers did not exist prior to Windows 95 do not know about them, but I and many power users use them exlusivelly because they are easier to use from normal typing position.

Post by **nikos** » 2003 Jun 19, 07:44

there is no problem adding more keyboard shortcuts but at least one of these (Shift+Del) is already taken -- permanent deletion of items

pila · Post by **pila** » 2003 Jun 19, 10:03

ergonomywise, it is not good idea to use standard command for somethig else

But, now it is obviously not feasible to change that

Although, I beleive it would be feasible to move Delete Directly to e.g. Shift+Ctrl+Delete to accomodate these standard Windows commands.

I have hit this problem many times because I have a habbit to open two x2 windows and to copy things between them so F5/f6 are not of any use.

By the way, F5 and F6 are among the worst choices, ergonomywise, for frequently used commands. Actually, worst two chpoices would be F7 and F8 because user must take his hand cimpletely from the standard typing position (index fingers on F and J). Anything else would be better for frequent and/or important commands.

Please, do not get this comment wrong, I like x2 extremly

But, I can see that you have made some choices in the style "who cares, this is the next available key". Since I am a programmer by profession, and a technical reviewer by occupation

with expertise in the functional design and ergonomy, I am picky about such details

)

It would habe benn much better if F5-F8 were on F9-F12, and F10 could have been somwehere else.

Choices you make for your program should be logical to the most users and not only for your. They should never be made just to get rid of the problem. They deserve some thinking. I know you said "do not comment user interface" but basis you set now will not be easy to change when existing users get used to it.

But, all in all, I can see that you have implemented many improvements, and many of my own earlier comments, too. X2 really is closing fast to the well rounded product. It is even more stabile than earlier versions. Great job

Post by **nikos** » 2003 Jun 19, 14:58

shift+delete is a standard windows shortcut
i bet explorer uses the same, so it's not just x2

now F5 etc have nothing to do with ergonomy
at any rate I can't see how any Fxx key would make a difference since you'd have to take your hands off the keyboard anyway

the selection of F5/F6 etc is traditional, inspired from the grandaddy of all file managers, norton commander. Just the mere suggestion that they are unergonomic is nothing but disrespect of the first degree

and I bet that if Norton was dead (he isn't although he keeps quiet) he would be turning in his grave!

pila · Post by **pila** » 2003 Jun 19, 21:06

shift+delete is a standard windows shortcut
i bet explorer uses the same, so it's not just x2

yes and no. Try it. Cut in itself is delete. But, you can still make a paste with "deleted files" in any applciation, including reular Explorer. That is the standard and all Windows application respect these three commands. I must admit that I never used shift+delete for deleting the files in the Explorer but for moving them to otheer folders. It is not wise to make direct delete when you have valuable data. You can get in the trouble.

Ctrl+insert - copy
Shift+delete - cut
Shift+Insert - paste

now F5 etc have nothing to do with ergonomy
at any rate I can't see how any Fxx key would make a difference since you'd have to take your hands off the keyboard anyway

I am willing to bet you can not blind type (without looking at the keyboard)? Ask someone who can. Ergonomy says that anything requiering you to move a hand from the standard position means lost time and break in the typing concentration. Such action requires typist to look at the keyboard to hit the right keys and that is very bad. Standard position is index fingers on the F and J. I can typef2-f5 and f9-f12 without moving my palm when my hand is in the stadard position and witout looking at them.

the selection of F5/F6 etc is traditional, inspired from the grandaddy of all file managers, norton commander. Just the mere suggestion that they are unergonomic is nothing but disrespect of the first degree and I bet that if Norton was dead (he isn't although he keeps quiet) he would be turning in his grave!

Quite possible, as I said elsewhere, I never used Norton Commander. If it was granddady, I can not claim witout checking references, but I would not bet on it

In those days, nobody in the software business knew what "ergonomy" means. Many do not know today, unfortunatelly. Software was prodced completely differently those days. Nobody ever heard of "usability testing" or consulted psychologists. That is what many companies do today routinley and I am doing it professionaly. I also do it for some larger and wery well software companies

First ergonomy and usability issues, that I know of, were raisted with the Windows 95, and I actually worked on them and some of my comments were implemented. That is not to say I like Windows

Post by **nikos** » 2003 Jun 20, 11:01

i'm glad that 2x/x2 attract usability enthusiasts like yourself; that's the main advantage and design spec for my programs.

while using x2 one is not in "typing" mode since most of the time commands are entered with Fxx and combinations of Ctrl and other modifiers. Personally I have to check the keyboard every time for these things (actually i can touch-type but not at secretary pace) because just one "mistake" can make the difference between copying or shredding the file -- why risk it?

anyway, usability aside, F5 etc are here to stay -- it's tradition! However if you feel strongly about them, you can use tools like the resource hacker to change keyboard assignments (just edit x2's accelerator table to taste)