the future is here

[Kilmatead]

Anyway, there is no term known that says that it must not be used after your death.

Hah, now there's the benefit in nitpicking license wording!  :lol: I like it.

[Tuxman]

Well, it is only one example.

[WimdeLange]

I've bought a lifetime license because I hate to pay for every update.

And exactly when was the last time you paid for an update for x2 (with anything other than blood)?
As to the definition of lifetime... the boring answer is the lifetime of the "product".  The more interesting answer is that Nikos (like all of us) reserves the right to give up his worldly things and join and ashram at any given moment.  You never know when enlightenment might strike and bare all your life's banalities open to the world's prying judgement - and you find yourself ashamed for not trying harder to make it work with your first wife before giving up so easily.
Of course the Devil advocates behaving "properly" - how else is he to deceive?  Didn't you read The Screwtape Letters?  Requisite reading - especially for atheists.  And just good fun, too.

Indeed I never paid for an update, but I bought a lifetime. What I did (mostly in the past) is to test beta's and give feedback a lot. That I like to do and boost the developer in this way. But lately I don't have much time for that and the community has become so big, that there are others faster then me in finding problems. The Screwtape Letters? C.S. Lewis? I did read Narnia complete. Does that count? The description sounds interesting. I put it on my reading list.

[patlange]

...
Of course the Devil advocates behaving "properly" - how else is he to deceive?  Didn't you read The Screwtape Letters?  Requisite reading - especially for atheists.  And just good fun, too.

Why especially for atheists?

[RightPaddock]

Strangely enough, that was the original plan for V2 licenses, until he discovered PayPal wouldn't transfer them - plus it put some of our non-temperate climate users at a slight disadvantage.

Just for the record : you cant readily buy a lifetime license via Paypal, whether you want to pay with US$, sheep, gold bars, kryptonite or even cowrie shells.  

The lifetime license is only offered to those who pay via Plimus or ShareIt - I'm told they'll even accept drachma's or a herd of dead cats (providing they bounce)

RP

[Kilmatead]

Why especially for atheists?

Veering off-topic here, so I'll keep it short and simple - at its simplest, the Screwtape Letters is basic sociology calling into question the popular notions of free-will, and personal motivation.  The so-called modern world seems to suffer from a total absence of the former and a surfeit of the latter (some might argue by educational design).  C.S. Lewis effectively adopts a simplified and light-hearted approach to this (his academic work revolving around the historical derivations of medieval cosmology and convention could be considered a little tougher to chew on, but entertaining nonetheless).  His own personal self-proclaimed atheism in early life is an experience commonly shared by most people - an observation of selfish "expectations" and cynicism that people often ascribe to the "organised religions", without really knowing why people "look out of themselves", the individual often looks back on their own lives with a type of disgust at the lies they were told (while some of us take this petulance further into adulthood , most people grow out of it and hide behind some odd "appreciation of their parent's limitations").   Most of these lies deserve proper resentment as they were designed to filter a culture of obedience and practical economic usefulness, and the young-person's place therein.

For all the world's thematic variation, the apples rarely fall far from the tree, as they say.  In the same way as most kids don't read Aristotle (Nicomachean Ethics, et al) anymore, they are still educated under his aegis - the same holds true for St. Augustine (who reads the City of God except as historical amusement?).  Apparently, as cultural trends go, young people seem to be reading less and less of everything, while at the same time exhibiting an attitude of lightweight polycultural awareness ("savvy") that they (and the world) accept as normal.  This, while ironically fostering the personal belief of "free will" usually presents itself as the exact opposite in the light of time.

While theists and atheists rarely trouble themselves with the "bigger questions" these days (they are construed with disdain as a "luxury"), that speaks more to their cultures than it does any personal sense of motivation.  The irony here, as I see it, is that the very absence of that motivational awareness is itself a luxury - a common criticism levelled at ancient Greece (with its centrism on abstract thought) is that it was born of indolence and slavery.  Exactly how is that different from the indolence and slavery that the individual inflicts upon himself (by choice) in today's modern society?  Very little, I should think - it's just that today no one calls it "philosophical abstraction" anymore - they just see it as the natural culmination of the modern condition expressed as "personal choice".

In short (I did promise to keep this brief), the notion of "Know Thy Enemy" (for lack of a better phrase) applies to any type of atheist as much as it does to any type of theist.  If they "choose" not to do this, then they are neither atheists or theists to begin with, and their motivations become as somewhat irrelevant as their proclamations of "I am this... I am that..." - no, no you're not.

But the question of why they insist upon the truth of their feelings (as if they were "their" feelings to begin with) still remains, and the Screwtape Letters gives a nice light-hearted twist to an otherwise serious game.

Anyway, that's the short-answer book review of the week - tune in next week for Tintin does War and Peace as seen through the eyes of Plutarch.

[Kilmatead]

Just for the record : you cant readily buy a lifetime license via Paypal, whether you want to pay with US$, sheep, gold bars, kryptonite or even cowrie shells.  

The lifetime license is only offered to those who pay via Plimus or ShareIt - I'm told they'll even accept drachma's or a herd of dead cats (providing they bounce)

Just for the record: Of course you can.

Funny, I did it three years ago without any problem or misunderstanding - and I don't use anything except PayPal.  It's also as easily done today: What part of the "Buy License" button on the website does not mention Optional Extras? - where Lifetime is clearly offered before one bothers with payment type at all.  You ticks your box and takes your choice, no mountains, molehills or other distractions.

The only thing I don't like is how when paying with PayPal the website still insists on you entering your name and other nonsense when (with PayPal) there is no need of this information.  All it does is multiply the lies people have to use when dealing with internet commerce.

[patlange]

In short (I did promise to keep this brief), the notion of "Know Thy Enemy" (for lack of a better phrase) applies to any type of atheist as much as it does to any type of theist.

Thank you for the very interesting reading.  I always look forward to your posts, so dense with style and wit.  It didn't answer my original question, but did introduce many topics for endless discussion. ... none of which belongs here, so I'll end it here.

[Kilmatead]

It didn't answer my original question

Well, you're half-right - part of the phrase "especially for atheists" was meant only as a friendly personal dig at Tuxman (who'd no doubt just take it in his stride and dismiss it), but the other part was an exhortation for people to understand what they're against.  If one claims to be an agnostic, that's fair enough - they're not for or against anything, but the term a-theist is etymologically anti-theist, or a specific rejection of a given (perceived) hierarchy of deities or non-corporeal powers.  Which raises the question that if you are targeting something to be specifically against, there must be a reason you are against it (i.e., motivation).  The trouble here is that most people just hide behind that vague phrase "I don't like organised religion" - which is actually irrelevant to the question of theism.  For instance, it's impossible to comprehend the fall of the Roman Empire (or the rise of the so-called Holy Roman Empire) outside the context of the Nicene Ecumenical Council and who they were there to excommunicate and why his theistic take on philosophy was such a trouble-maker.  Most people just say, "who cares?"  Which is fine, except they miss the bigger picture (fall of historical Empire - and, like it or not, massive influence on Occidental Culture).  Others would say, "yeah but that's just Catholic nonsense", harkening back to the most common (but not the least) target of "I hate organised blah blah".  Again, they miss the bigger picture.

So, my suggestion that atheists read it is not to convert them (I don't care about those things), it's simply that they investigate where their personal antipathy to things comes from.  For instance, I can say "I like Russian Literature, but I don't like 19th-century French Culture".  Now anyone who knows how and why the two are connected would say that sentence verges on non-sequiturish logic.  But everyone else would say "Yeah, so what? What's the big deal?"  Which means they never actually question whether I know what I'm talking about or not, and thus cannot say if my opinion on Russian Lit might have validity or not - people have gotten into a habit of "allowing everyone their own opinions" without realising that most so-called Opinions are not viewpoints at all, they're just non sequiturs of ignorance that are accepted as valid because the milieu itself is based on ignorance.

In other words, you have to know something about theism before you can be an atheist.  And you can't call yourself an atheist merely because you reject some silly organised Western religion - and you can't reject that without knowing where it came from in the first place; just because a bunch of odd people wouldn't give you condoms in school or even if they burned your grandmother at the stake that's not grounds to hate something intellectually.  That's grounds to avoid it (agnostic), but not hate it.  Without knowledge (even of things you don't like) - any opinion is nonsensical emotional petulance.

Better answer?

[Kilmatead]

none of which belongs here

True, but as this thread is basically "finished with"/outdated anyway, it doesn't make too much difference.  And since no one ever reads my wordy-nonsense, no one will notice we've strayed off topic (which, given the title "the future is here" is not as far off the topic as some would like to believe ).

[fgagnon]

most so-called Opinions are not viewpoints at all, they're just non sequiturs of ignorance...

a well-put observation on stuff I hear all too frequently from the media and occasionally from folks face-to-face

... And since no one ever reads my wordy-nonsense, no one will notice we've strayed off topic (which, given the title "the future is here" is not as far off the topic as some would like to believe).

so call me no one

[Kilmatead]

so call me no one

Ooh, I do so love a double-edged sword on Saturday afternoons!  As a moderator you're somewhat obligated to read everything just in case we slip in too much subliminal profanity (a much maligned substance the world actually needs more of).  And by reading it, you're also making me aware that I'm treading too close to the off-topic limit of your engineering tastes.  Which I'm now just exacerbating!  The joys of living in a conundrum are boundless.  I'm sure I have something truly constructive to say at least once a month or so, but today I'm just floating with the fatigue of summer.

Usually I only get good-natured abuse from narayan for my wordy-troubles.  (He has this thing about quantities of verbiage falling on his head...)

[patlange]

none of which belongs here

True, but as this thread is basically "finished with"/outdated anyway, it doesn't make too much difference.  And since no one ever reads my wordy-nonsense, no one will notice we've strayed off topic (which, given the title "the future is here" is not as far off the topic as some would like to believe ).

I don't get to the forum often, but when I do, I seek out what you write, regardless of the topic.  You're one heck of a writer.  

As to the rest of it, I'm going to respond privately and you can answer or not as you see fit.

[Tuxman]

Do you expect people in discussion boards to shut up most of the time?

[patlange]

Do you expect people in discussion boards to shut up most of the time?

Are you talking to me?  

No, I don't expect anything, nor am I trying to impose any rules.  I did, however, earn my forum "chops" back in the olden days of Prodigy when monitors were ready to pop out of the shadows and yank my posts, exhorting me to STAY ON TOPIC.  I couldn't even (try to) give a friend a gentle public tease without having a message pulled as ABUSIVE.

I'm sensitive to the issue and try (not always successfully) not to be one of the "offenders".

In the case of THIS forum, I fervently hope nothing changes.