blog: stuck between a rock and a hard place

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nikos
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blog: stuck between a rock and a hard place

Post by nikos » 2020 Nov 01, 07:10

here's the comment area for today's blog spot found at
https://www.zabkat.com/blog/covidiots-abound.htm

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Re: blog: stuck between a rock and a hard place

Post by Brig » 2020 Nov 02, 16:50

You're an intelligent man, but this is not an intelligent blog post. I have no desire to rebut each of your points--I live in the US under Trump and I'm exhausted. I'll deal with two issues you raise. First, "Naive measures like 2m distancing, washing the hands and masks clearly don't work to prevent spreading the disease — just slow it down at best." No public health physician ever claimed these measures would prevent the disease. These measure are meant to slow the spread of the virus, and slowing the spread means fewer people get sick and fewer people die. These are unequivocally good things, and everyone should do everything possible to promote them. Moreover, if everyone did this, the need for total lock downs would disappear and economies could keep chugging along. The people who can't be bothered to take these simple steps ruin everything. (Look at the numbers of cases and deaths that result directly from Trump's rallies.) Second, "I regret the loss of life, but that seems inevitable." In the US, probably elsewhere too, people who say this don't know anyone who has gotten sick or died from COVID-19. It's a cavalier attitude that grows out of inexperience. People who say this stop saying it when they or a member of their family gets seriously ill or dies. Don't wait for that to happen to show compassion and concern for people you don't know.

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Re: blog: stuck between a rock and a hard place

Post by Brig » 2020 Nov 02, 17:20

Everyone, watch this - it's absolutely brilliant.

"Slow Motion Sneeze in 4K - The Slow Mo Guys with Dr Anthony Fauci" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZ66wJFD3bs)

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Re: blog: stuck between a rock and a hard place

Post by lnbrantley » 2020 Nov 02, 23:48

Thanks Brig for your response to this misguided blog post.

The economy will not come back until the virus is under control. Many people will not go out and stimulate the economy at the expense of their and their family's health. Reducing the spread of the virus is the only way to maintain the economy. The economy would be in better shape now if we had better leadership.

And all that macho BS about being "manly" is just repulsive.

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Re: blog: stuck between a rock and a hard place

Post by nikos » 2020 Nov 03, 05:37

sorry guys I can only do logic and arguments. It takes all sorts to make a world, and I am one of those odd ones that require convincing before limiting my freedom so severely.

there are even more extreme attitudes that dispute the existence of the virus (e.g. the current "2nd wave" is the result of increased testing rather than increase of infection), but I don't go that way because who would want to destroy the economy and why?

I put it down as mass government stupidity, for lack of a better explanation

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Re: blog: stuck between a rock and a hard place

Post by Brig » 2020 Nov 03, 17:11

Thanks lnbrantley, I agree completely. Nikos, it sounds to me like you're resistant to convincing. I don't know why. I'd suggest you do what you said, trust logic. Also, trust experts. If we have x2 problems, we go to you. If we have infectious disease problems, who better to go to than Fauci?

To those of us in the U.S., go vote if you haven't already. Vote for experts, science, logic, democracy, and decency.

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Re: blog: stuck between a rock and a hard place

Post by dunno » 2020 Nov 04, 03:52

There was the 1st wave lock down now the 2nd wave lock-down, how many lock-downs will be required to contain this flu like epidemic. can economies be sustained through free money at the expense of the tax payer, is this sustainable ?.

Nobody is talking about Sweden's method for tackling the Virus, why is that?. They never went into total lock-down thus saving their economy.
Japan emulated Sweden, no lock-down and economy is functional, however, Fukushima Daichici is still poisoning the Pacific ocean, *crickets..
Why has China's economy suddenly roared back to normal, there's been no second wave, odd?.
Why has India's economy also roared back to normal with no second wave, The worlds two most populous nations with atrocious health care are suddenly back to normal, odd?
Most of central Asia, the 'Stan countries, and southern Asia have largely ignored lock-downs, they're still functioning and thriving, odd?. They're dong so well that financial advisors are talking about the "emerging market rebound", why is that?.
Russia emulated Sweden, no lock-down and economy is doing fine.
All militaries world wide didn't go into lock-down why?.
All so called "essential workers", are allowed to roam free. Shout out to the guys who do all the Dirty, Dangerous, and Shitty jobs which keeps society functioning, you men rock.

Compare the reaction of CV-19 to that of SARS; MERS; H1N1; H7N9, which has 70 variations; NO LOCK-DOWNS.
Ebola, a 100% deadly and contagious virus rampant in central Africa, NO LOCK-DOWNS ANYWHERE AT ANY TIME.

It seems to me that there's a pattern, western so called democracies (including American blue states) are hell bent on destroying their economies by brutally containing their populace ONLY, why ?.
American blue states allow the Burn Loot Murder protests without exception yet FORCE others to stay at home, why?.

"Something is rotten in the state of Denmark"

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Re: blog: stuck between a rock and a hard place

Post by nikos » 2020 Nov 04, 06:07

so the score is 2 against experts (thanks dunno), 2 for experts, typical division for this and other debates (see elections etc :))

personally I have met enough "experts" in person (I was a scientist with PhD in my former life), especially some like those that talk on the TV, so I am very much sceptical. The scientific community itself is also split in the middle (in this and other hot debates), only at this time, the paranoics got the upper hand and the other side is too scared to come forward and talk (don't you love crowd psychology?)

dunno, very well said, so many countries did things differently, and the virus did its own thing, many times contradicting the extra efforts.

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Re: blog: stuck between a rock and a hard place

Post by Brig » 2020 Nov 04, 15:59

There was the 1st wave lock down now the 2nd wave lock-down, how many lock-downs will be required to contain this flu like epidemic? Can economies be sustained through free money at the expense of the tax payer, is this sustainable?
How many? However many are necessary. Trump had information about the virus at the end of November 2019, and he ignored it. If, in December, January, or even February, he'd acted and promoted simple public health measures there would have been no lock down and very few people would have gotten sick and died. He waited until March and disparaged mask wearing, social distancing, etc., attacked the experts and promoted the attitude you folks are espousing. And more than a quarter of a million people are dead in the U.S.

Flu-like? It is, but unlike influenza, relatively little is known about SARS-CoV-2. And, unlike the flu, there is no vaccine for SARS-CoV-2. So saying it's like the flu is meaningless--worse, it's dangerously misleading.
Nobody is talking about Sweden's method for tackling the Virus, why is that?. They never went into total lock-down thus saving their economy.
Lots of people are talking about Sweden. From Business Insider: "Sweden has introduced new guidelines for regions as its coronavirus cases surge in line with other European countries." And, "The country famously didn't introduce much of a lockdown during its first wave, and its death rate surged to one of the world's highest." But at least the economy is OK, right?
Japan emulated Sweden, no lock-down and economy is functional, however, Fukushima Daichici is still poisoning the Pacific ocean, *crickets.
Yes, they did, more or less, until they had to take it seriously. They had a surge of cases and deaths in August.
Why has China's economy suddenly roared back to normal, there's been no second wave, odd?
You've forgotten they were locked down for months early in the year. Their public health restrictions are still quite strict. When they eased up in the summer, there was another surge.
Why has India's economy also roared back to normal with no second wave, The worlds two most populous nations with atrocious health care are suddenly back to normal, odd?
India is different. They have a lot of cases but fewer deaths. "Now, new research by Indian scientists suggests that low hygiene, lack of clean drinking water, and unsanitary conditions may have actually saved many lives from severe Covid-19.... [P]eople living in low and low middle-income countries may have been able to stave off severe forms of the infection because of exposure to various pathogens from childhood, which give them sturdier immunity to Covid-19." This is not something for the U.S. or the U.K. to emulate.
Most of central Asia, the 'Stan countries, and southern Asia have largely ignored lock-downs, they're still functioning and thriving, odd?. They're dong so well that financial advisors are talking about the "emerging market rebound", why is that?.
Russia emulated Sweden, no lock-down and economy is doing fine.
All militaries world wide didn't go into lock-down why?
Do more research.
All so called "essential workers", are allowed to roam free.
Why disparage them with "so called"? You don't think health-care workers, farm laborers, and grocery clerks are essential? During a lock down essential workers are allowed to "roam free" because their work is essential. And they're not free, they're burdened by the responsibility.
Shout out to the guys who do all the Dirty, Dangerous, and Shitty jobs which keeps society functioning, you men rock.
"Men"? Are you living in the 19th century?
Compare the reaction of CV-19 to that of SARS; MERS; H1N1; H7N9, which has 70 variations; NO LOCK-DOWNS.
They aren't nearly as infective as SARS-CoV-2. And the public-health responses to them were swift and massive.
Ebola, a 100% deadly and contagious virus rampant in central Africa, NO LOCK-DOWNS ANYWHERE AT ANY TIME.
Ebola starts in bush country and is largely confined to those remote areas, because the people who live there and eat bush meat cannot and do not travel. Moreover, the ebola outbreaks have been met with swift and massive containment measures, from the WHO, Medecins sans Frontieres, and others.
It seems to me that there's a pattern, western so called democracies (including American blue states) are hell bent on destroying their economies by brutally containing their populace ONLY, why ?.
American blue states allow the Burn Loot Murder protests without exception yet FORCE others to stay at home, why?.
This is offensively stupid and racist.

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Re: blog: stuck between a rock and a hard place

Post by Brig » 2020 Nov 04, 18:13

Read this:

"How some countries controlled the coronavirus while others have surges." (https://www.businessinsider.com/how-cou ... an-2020-11)

The key point: "According to public-health experts, these successes are the result of a clear recipe: Create a cohesive federal plan with consistent messaging, get everyone to wear masks, and implement widespread testing and contact tracing. The countries failing to curb their outbreaks are missing at least one of those elements. The US lacks all of them."
personally I have met enough "experts" in person (I was a scientist with PhD in my former life), especially some like those that talk on the TV, so I am very much sceptical. The scientific community itself is also split in the middle (in this and other hot debates), only at this time, the paranoics got the upper hand and the other side is too scared to come forward and talk (don't you love crowd psychology?)
It is always possible to find a PhD who will tell you anything you want to hear, anything from the Earth is flat or only 6,000 years old to race is biological and determines intelligence. It's not the degree that matters, it's the work. If I want advice on what to do about infectious diseases, I'm going to look for people with successful experiences dealing with them. With COVID-19, I want to hear from the guy who figured out how to control HIV/AIDS. Not some YouTube yahoo who somehow got a doctorate.

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Re: blog: stuck between a rock and a hard place

Post by pj » 2020 Nov 05, 00:09

Just the facts:

- My brother, in his '70s, has had it twice. It was definitely worse than the flu, and he lost his sense of taste. But he recovered in a few weeks the first time and a few days the second.

- An engineer I work with, and his entire family, came down with it. He described it as a flu with diarrhea. They recovered in about a week.

- President Trump, his wife and son all had it. Recovered in days.

I noticed you didn't mention anything about New York's THOUSANDS of elderly who died when Cuomo ordered infected persons back into nursing homes. Or the same with New Jersey and Massachusetts. Those states alone accounted for a significant percentage of all the deaths in the States.

People who are vulnerable need to isolate. Everyone else, not so much.

I guess some people let their politics interfere with their logic. I don't know how independent you are financially, but I personally know family that are about to lose their homes. Another lock down with put them into a homeless shelter.

Timing was very "convenient" for some factions....

Bashing Trump is ridiculous. When he banned flights from China, Biden, Cuomo, DeBlasio and Pelosi all called him crazy and over-reacting. Pelosi told people to flood into Chinatown. DeBlasio had people dancing in the streets. And lets then look at how the "experts" ignored the lack of social distancing during the riots.

As this is an unprecedented virus any response can be arm-chair quarterback criticized, like Biden has done non-stop, from his basement, but I diverge into politics again.

None of this will change your CNN-filled mind. Too bad.

----------------
PJ in FL

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Re: blog: stuck between a rock and a hard place

Post by dunno » 2020 Nov 05, 03:29

@ Brig
Since when is the WHO a credible organisation ?, they have flip flopped and been caught out in so many lies it beggars belief, first it wasn't a pandemic, then it was, and the list of their contradictions is endless, they aren't called the "Wuhan Health Organisation" for nothing.
You saying that the WHO and MSF have everything under control in central Africa is like me saying that the Americans never went to the moon.

We are killing more people through the lock-downs in poor countries than the virus itself ever will, and if you don't see that it means you are completely out of touch with the poor of this world, Millions around the world can only place food on the table if they've earned something that day, its a HAND TO MOUTH EXISTENCE, you have the callous audacity to sit in the comfort of your lounge with a full stomach and say "as many lock-downs as is required",
https://time.com/5864803/oxfam-hunger-covid-19/

butt... there's always a butt, back to the civilised west. What is the actual death rate of CV=19, compare that to the death rates of, Alcohol abuse, Narcotics abuse, Drug abuse, Medical mal-practise, Vehicle accidents, labour fatalities, Suicides, and Abortion, add all those up and marvel at the vast discrepancy and disproportionate response to a serious flu, abortion has killed 50 million humans in the US alone, that's genocide right there.
Thousands of children die daily and have died daily pre CV-19, *crickets.. a monolith of silence and inaction, but my oh my if a few fat/obese/immune compromised westerners die, "EVERYBODY STOP WHAT YOU'RE DOING THIS IS SERIOUS".

To quote Greta, "HOW DARE YOU" (love that meme), but I bet that you and Greta will be satisfied and overjoyed at the destruction of western economies.

And the children still die by the thousands daily, the west says "Look-Down"... I just love the hypocrisy.

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Re: blog: stuck between a rock and a hard place

Post by FrizzleFry » 2020 Nov 14, 00:54

I think this post should be moved to the General forum. It has nothing to do with x2.

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Re: blog: stuck between a rock and a hard place

Post by johngalt » 2020 Dec 20, 22:31

Agreed. Or perhaps even a new sub-forum since it has devolved into yet another political bashing session.

@Nikos - you didn't start the political bashing, and for that I thank you - but idiots in America will always make it political.

And yes, I was born and bred and still live in the US, thanks. I know many of these types of idiots well.
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